Gravey more than just tomato sauce as special ingredient, Rude a bit rich with his explanation.

[tkdbboy]

TL;DR

Spoiler

Dozer has a nice butt

 

[danncam]

Pretty fascinating read.
Still sad to see Jared and Richie cheated. The script they are using to combat the news is an old one.

 

[Warp]

Yeah, I'll give you that, seems contradictory on my part.

There is a bit of backstory to my opinion on drug testing in sport. I'll try to keep it brief.
.
.
.
You made it this far!

So... should we not drug test?

I've followed Road racing for ages and I always wondered how long it took before all this doping stuff would fall onto MTB'ers. Which is sort of funny as we always heard tales of how "they race clean", "they are an example of morality and fair play", "there's no way drugs enhance your riding skills", etc...
Basically, denial. And now, here we are.

Agree that bringing it onto Jared is sort of shit. I get the point, it just feels wrong to me. The guy has bigger problems. After his comeback, yeah... throw the book at him but now is not the best of times.

 

[Dozer]

So... should we not drug test?

I dunno, I see the big picture of it and when we're talking totally conclusive evidence in situations like Lance Armstrong etc, that needs to be actioned for sure. I'm not acting like I understand what some of these banned substances do, I don't have much of a clue but I don't have trust in it and every case seems to have such a varied set of allegations and circumstances. Some seem so obvious yet many seem like a simple honest error. When all you've got to go on is someone's word, it shows a shit side of human interaction with the whole innocent until proven otherwise thing.

 

[Boom King]

When all you've got to go on is someone's word, it shows a shit side of human interaction with the whole innocent until proven otherwise thing.

But there is no innocence here. They have both tested positive and neither are contesting the result. They admit to having substances on board that should not have been there.

 

[Kerplunk]

I dunno, I see the big picture of it and when we're talking totally conclusive evidence in situations like Lance Armstrong etc, that needs to be actioned for sure.

They never properly caught Lance on a doping test. The conclusive evidence came witness testimony under oath.. He would have walked free if that hadn’t have happened..
If you follow doping in cycling the common factor is riders being busted with only minute/trace banned substance. And so many times it is later discovered the rider was on a program and gets tested when a banned drug hasn’t fully cleared their system. Or if they transfused a tainted bloodbag.. You rarely hear of a rider juiced to the gills that tested red hot positive, they aren’t that stupid anymore.. So that’s why a lot of cycling followers don’t buy the excuse “I took it accidentally”..
In the case of Graves, I really don’t understand why they thought it was a good idea to name him when he has serious health issues.. If there ever was a case to surpress the name of an athlete this is it. Once he had recovered then yeah he can face the music but right now is pretty poor form..

 

[Warp]

I dunno, I see the big picture of it and when we're talking totally conclusive evidence in situations like Lance Armstrong etc, that needs to be actioned for sure. I'm not acting like I understand what some of these banned substances do, I don't have much of a clue but I don't have trust in it and every case seems to have such a varied set of allegations and circumstances. Some seem so obvious yet many seem like a simple honest error. When all you've got to go on is someone's word, it shows a shit side of human interaction with the whole innocent until proven otherwise thing.

I see your point... but most of these problems can be avoided by simply staying clean. Yeah, that's another hurdle, I know but like my mum says "don't do good things that look wrong"

Now if the system is corrupt, I agree it has to be cleaned too. Corruption is just as bad or even worst than cheating.

 

[mas2]

At least while Graves is off recovering he can serve out his potential ban.

 

[Flow-Rider]

If a sports enhancing drug isn't legally available for everyone in the same race and gives an unfair advantage to the Athlete that takes it, it's not really a fair playing field. Oxilofrine isn't like eating a banana or drinking caffeine, it's more like taking Meth and that's why its banned in sport.

They never properly caught Lance on a doping test. The conclusive evidence came witness testimony under oath.. He would have walked free if that hadn’t have happened..
If you follow doping in cycling the common factor is riders being busted with only minute/trace banned substance. And so many times it is later discovered the rider was on a program and gets tested when a banned drug hasn’t fully cleared their system. Or if they transfused a tainted bloodbag.. You rarely hear of a rider juiced to the gills that tested red hot positive, they aren’t that stupid anymore.. So that’s why a lot of cycling followers don’t buy the excuse “I took it accidentally”..
In the case of Graves, I really don’t understand why they thought it was a good idea to name him when he has serious health issues.. If there ever was a case to surpress the name of an athlete this is it. Once he had recovered then yeah he can face the music but right now is pretty poor form..

There's actually ways of testing for blood transfusions, they can find minute trace elements of the plastic that the blood had been stored in and something with blood ages faster when it's stored out of the body for a long period. It's actually quite a dangerous process with ill side effects when it all goes bad.

Go to 11:23 mins on this vid.

 

[Oddjob]

This is going to make me even less popular then the colour green - but all professional sport is bullshit.

It has stuff all societal value and I'm still waiting for conclusive proof that professional sport leads to higher participation rates amongst the general public. In reality its a very expensive form of theatre/advertising and is riddled with rent seeking and corruption.

As much as I love watching mtb races, motorsport and rugby I always have this gnawing sense of guilt at what the money could be better spent on.

Balanced against this is the value of human lives. Fireys risk their lives every day to do a serious job and get paid peanuts for it. Pro athletes do a bullshit job and get paid exorbitantly. They should not also be risking their lives to do said bullshit job. There are already too many dead or busted up retired pros, allowing a laissez-faire framework for performance enhancing drugs would massively add to the body count.

I feel bad for Jared and Richie but I would rather they get busted, then have more Tom Simpsons. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Tom_Simpson



Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[John U]

I dunno, I see the big picture of it and when we're talking totally conclusive evidence in situations like Lance Armstrong etc, that needs to be actioned for sure. I'm not acting like I understand what some of these banned substances do, I don't have much of a clue but I don't have trust in it and every case seems to have such a varied set of allegations and circumstances. Some seem so obvious yet many seem like a simple honest error. When all you've got to go on is someone's word, it shows a shit side of human interaction with the whole innocent until proven otherwise thing.

Needs to be conclusive or nothing.

The dragged out Essendon saga was a joke and reflected the shit testing standard of the AFL combined with influence to avoid tarnishing the game which ended up making the situation worse.

Results need to conclusive, gathered quickly and dealt with quickly.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

In the case of Graves, I really don’t understand why they thought it was a good idea to name him when he has serious health issues.. If there ever was a case to surpress the name of an athlete this is it. Once he had recovered then yeah he can face the music but right now is pretty poor form..

I am of the view that any personal or health issues are irrelevant to him being named as failing a drug test. He failed a test and it has been reported, as long as every one is treated equally in this respect and policy is followed, tough luck.


Also Graves states in the pinkbike article he has never been tested before in the EWS and had no knowledge of anyone being tested (paraphrased), this is a massive red flag to me, in a competition that does not test for PED's, suddenly testing occurs, some high profile athletes are caught... who have been previously struggling with form / results... absolutely shocked I am!

 

[Calvin27]

This is going to make me even less popular then the colour green - but all professional sport is bullshit.

I feel bad for Jared and Richie but I would rather they get busted, then have more Tom Simpsons. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Tom_Simpson

I agree but disagree. We have shown time an time again that we haven't and possbly won't ever win the war on drugs. Just allow athletes to take whatever they want. I mean their support and science that goes into their efforts is already well beyond most average Joes, drugs are simply another dimension to that. Look at the entourage of high profile athletes and ask if this is an unfair advantage. Some of them have on call doctors, physios, masseuse, shrinks and model gfs.

In terms of safety of the drugs, this is also a oxymoron. The drugs get more dangerous as you regulate because to have the same bang for buck while avoiding testing, you have to take more risks. Conversely, if you let the pharma companies sponsor and supply drugs to the athletes in a deregulated environment, they have their reputations on the line and certainly will not want the athletes dying of sudden heart attacks on their drugs wearing their corporate colours.

 

[Kerplunk]

I am of the view that any personal or health issues are irrelevant to him being named as failing a drug test. He failed a test and it has been reported, as long as every one is treated equally in this respect and policy is followed, tough luck.


Also Graves states in the pinkbike article he has never been tested before in the EWS and had no knowledge of anyone being tested (paraphrased), this is a massive red flag to me, in a competition that does not test for PED's, suddenly testing occurs, some high profile athletes are caught... who have been previously struggling with form / results... absolutely shocked I am!

Chris Froome wasn’t named when he got caught, a newspaper found out and leaked it. It would have never been known to the public otherwise. It is no uncommon to not name the athlete in certain doping voliations in particular with a specified substance positive test, the UCI are experts at it..

I am not going to speculate on guilt, I haven’t seen enough of their races to make judgement.. The drugs they have tested positive aren’t automatic sanctions, they can argue their way out of a ban unlike a prohibited substance..

 

[John U]

Nailed it @Oddjob Sport at the professional level is largely vested interest on vested interest. But on here I think we all know that. Participation is where it’s at for 99.9999% of mountain bikers.

 

[Kerplunk]

If a sports enhancing drug isn't legally available for everyone in the same race and gives an unfair advantage to the Athlete that takes it, it's not really a fair playing field. Oxilofrine isn't like eating a banana or drinking caffeine, it's more like taking Meth and that's why its banned in sport.


There's actually ways of testing for blood transfusions, they can find minute trace elements of the plastic that the blood had been stored in and something with blood ages faster when it's stored out of the body for a long period. It's actually quite a dangerous process with ill side effects when it all goes bad.

Go to 11:23 mins on this vid.

I’ve read heaps about doping, yes it was the plasticiser from the blood bag that caused grief for contador along with his tainted cow meat clenbuturol..
Have you read Tyler Hamilton’s book? The stories about tainted/off blood bags is horrific..

 

[Flow-Rider]

I’ve read heaps about doping, yes it was the plasticiser from the blood bag that caused grief for contador along with his tainted cow meat clenbuturol..
Have you read Tyler Hamilton’s book? The stories about tainted/off blood bags is horrific..

I haven't read that book yet, It wouldn't surprise me one bit if most high profile road cycling athletes are doping to get an edge.

 

[Boom King]

I’ve read heaps about doping, yes it was the plasticiser from the blood bag that caused grief for contador along with his tainted cow meat clenbuturol..
Have you read Tyler Hamilton’s book? The stories about tainted/off blood bags is horrific..

Tyler's book is a good read. Let's not overlook the fact that Armstrong was on the gear for many years. It's highly possible that his experimental drug taking regime has a direct correlation to his many cancers.

 

[ForkinGreat]

I agree but disagree. We have shown time an time again that we haven't and possbly won't ever win the war on drugs. Just allow athletes to take whatever they want. I mean their support and science that goes into their efforts is already well beyond most average Joes, drugs are simply another dimension to that. Look at the entourage of high profile athletes and ask if this is an unfair advantage. Some of them have on call doctors, physios, masseuse, shrinks and model gfs.

In terms of safety of the drugs, this is also a oxymoron. The drugs get more dangerous as you regulate because to have the same bang for buck while avoiding testing, you have to take more risks. Conversely, if you let the pharma companies sponsor and supply drugs to the athletes in a deregulated environment, they have their reputations on the line and certainly will not want the athletes dying of sudden heart attacks on their drugs wearing their corporate colours.

I think that's a load of shit. By proposing to make it a free-for-all, you are guaranteeing that there will be more athlete deaths and long term chronic illnesses, because everyone IS actually doing PEDs. and they will be doing the maximum, because everyone else will be.

Get rid of TUEs. TUE= Therapeutic Use Exemption. TUEs are the biggest scam going in sport. If you are too sick to compete without a TUE, then you shouldn't be competing. If there's a lot of exercise induced asthma - tough tits, everyone else will have it too, so don't whine and ask for special treatment, like Bradley Wiggins and Chris Froome. Fuck those arseholes. Bullshitting about being 'clean' and rubbing our faces in it. Fuck that.

Double down on the testing - test everyone - all the time, at the teams expense, and if they don't like it, they can GTFO and play tiddlywinks for all I care.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

Regarding athletes killing themselves, Goldmans dilemma, interesting topic, must debated in the sports science / psych communities.

Further adding to Forkin's comments, by proposing the deregulation of drugs in sport, it also means that anyone who wants to be a competitive athlete must take the drugs to be competitive, are drugs also allowed for amateurs? who most likely have little to no medical assistance in ensuring they don't maim or kill themselves? Kids? what age can my sons get on the drug program? Genetic engineering?