Halotherapy

Mywifesirrational

I however am very normal. Trust me.
So back to acupuncture...

I have a man crush on moorey :)

There is a study at work on this right now, a qualified Osteo + chinese med trained clinician is doing acupuncture on the participants, we are measuring any cortical changes (blinded to who got the real or shame treatment). I'm not biased for or against acupuncture, I am sure there IS a strong placebo effect, but the results so far have been interesting especially compared to the control group who don't know they are a control group.

This study has no subjective measurements (surveys), that's the only reason why the boss agreed to do it.

Would I spend money on acupuncture.... no.
 

moorey

I'm full, couldn't eat another dick
So back to acupuncture...

I have a man crush on moorey :)

There is a study at work on this right now, a qualified Osteo + chinese med trained clinician is doing acupuncture on the participants, we are measuring any cortical changes (blinded to who got the real or shame treatment). I'm not biased for or against acupuncture, I am sure there IS a strong placebo effect, but the results so far have been interesting especially compared to the control group who don't know they are a control group.

This study has no subjective measurements (surveys), that's the only reason why the boss agreed to do it.

Would I spend money on acupuncture.... no.
That's a pleasant change from, "man, I'm going to crush you, Moorey":eyebrows::eyebrows:
 

WolfCreekPsycho

Likes Dirt
So back to acupuncture...

I have a man crush on moorey :)

There is a study at work on this right now, a qualified Osteo + chinese med trained clinician is doing acupuncture on the participants, we are measuring any cortical changes (blinded to who got the real or shame treatment). I'm not biased for or against acupuncture, I am sure there IS a strong placebo effect, but the results so far have been interesting especially compared to the control group who don't know they are a control group.

This study has no subjective measurements (surveys), that's the only reason why the boss agreed to do it.

Would I spend money on acupuncture.... no.
Placebo effect completely fixed my rotator cuff injury!!.. after 4 visits to the local chinese placebo-ist I went from not being able to lift my arm above shoulder height, toss a ball, run, lift heavy things... its back to near 100%. After 6 months of pain and re-injury all it took was 2 weeks of placebo!

Infact I have had many long standing muscular issues that have been resolved by a few trips to the local placebo-ist.

If all it takes is some needles jabbed in me to trigger that and give me so much life back... then the accupunture has worked... infact it worked a lot better than the NSAIDS, stretch bands and exercises that the Sports Doc gave me... they did nothing. Were they a lesser strength placebo??
 

moorey

I'm full, couldn't eat another dick
Placebo effect completely fixed my rotator cuff injury!!.. after 4 visits to the local chinese placebo-ist I went from not being able to lift my arm above shoulder height, toss a ball, run, lift heavy things... its back to near 100%. After 6 months of pain and re-injury all it took was 2 weeks of placebo!

Infact I have had many long standing muscular issues that have been resolved by a few trips to the local placebo-ist.

If all it takes is some needles jabbed in me to trigger that and give me so much life back... then the accupunture has worked... infact it worked a lot better than the NSAIDS, stretch bands and exercises that the Sports Doc gave me... they did nothing. Were they a lesser strength placebo??
Did you read/listen to the link i put up? There are definitely varying degrees of effectiveness of placebos, depending on how they are administered, who by etc.
If it works for you, great, but anecdote does not equal evidence. PS, glad you can toss again:clap2:
 

WolfCreekPsycho

Likes Dirt
Did you read/listen to the link i put up?
Yeah I had a read through the link, as soundly reputable as it is...it does nothing to highlight your argument nor is it even remotely relevant to the effect, real or perceived, of acupuncture.
Maybe you should read the link you sent through.... ?


Lets just grab a selection from the bottom of page 1..:

1,144 acupuncture patients
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Exposed to infection
1979 - January 2004
Health officials discovered that an acupuncture practitioner was not properly sterilizing the needles used. Almost 1,200 patients could have been exposed to infection, and had to be contacted to get HIV and hepatitis tests. Read more & more

30 London clinic patients
London, England
Hepatitis B infections
July 1997 - February 1998
Up to 30 patients were infected with the potentially deadly Hepatitis B virus at a London alternative medicine clinic. They were given an unproven procedure called autohaemotherapy, which is based on acupuncture. The doctor was sent to jail. Read more

"John Doe"
Tokyo, Japan
Died
September 2003
This case report is of the autopsy of a patient who experienced shortness of breath right after an acupuncture treatment. Both lungs had collapsed. The patient died within 90 minutes. Read more

"Jane Roe"
Age: 40
Norway
Died
May 1995
Seeking relief from her fibromyalgia, she visited an acupuncturist. The needle punctured her unusually thin chest wall, and damaged her heart. She was dead within 2 hours. Read more


Gee I see a lot of evidence here for poor practice but nothing at all that qualifies your statements about the effectiveness or lack there of of acupuncture.
This one is a gem though...

Whats the harm in moon landing denial:
Bart Sibrel
Age: 37
Beverly Hills, California
Punched in the face
September 9, 2002
Bart is a major proponent of moon hoax misinformation. When he decided to harrass astronaut Buzz Aldrin about it, Buzz fought back. Bart became the recipient of a punch to the face.

Safe to say that one was not a placebo.

The argument here was not really around the existence of the placebo effect... but the effectiveness of acupuncture. To argue that it is nothing more than a placebo, you would first have to prove it doesnt work and that any benefit derived is simply placebo induced.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/search/article;jsessionid=20xjg5wp5dkrs.alice?option1=tka&value1=acupuncture&pageSize=10&index=1 one of many
 
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moorey

I'm full, couldn't eat another dick
I'm sorry, but i don't have to prove it doesn't work. You have to prove it does work. Are you really telling me that scientific study backs the existence of Qi/Chi and meridians?.:bowl:
'Whats the harm' is a fun site, but i'm not putting it up as evidence. Skeptoid's placebo effect only touches on acupuncture as part of the overall placebo effect, but thats basically all it comes down to.
 

moorey

I'm full, couldn't eat another dick
Additionally, the link you put up....Is it peer reviewed research? I don't know anything about the site and its researchers (and don't have the slightest inclination to find out more), but one link on the net doesn't do anything to prove your point.
I don't want to take anything away from what works for you. Its like me trying to prove to you that there is no god.
 

workmx

Banned
...To argue that it is nothing more than a placebo, you would first have to prove it doesnt work and that any benefit derived is simply placebo induced.
The burden of proof isn't on me to prove it doesn't work, it's on you/practitioners to prove it does. It's called "null hypothesis".
WCP - How are you going with that evidence?

I am sure that the James Randi Educational Foundation would love to hear from you.

They have US$1M for you to collect.
 
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moorey

I'm full, couldn't eat another dick
WCP - How are you going with that evidence?

I am sure that the James Randi Educational Foundation would love to hear from you.

They have US$1M for you to collect.
Its a tricky one, this acupuncture...I believe people who say it made them feel better....it just doesn't seem to work any better than sham acupuncture in properly conducted, blind tests.
 

Mywifesirrational

I however am very normal. Trust me.
Placebo effect completely fixed my rotator cuff injury!!.. after 4 visits to the local chinese placebo-ist I went from not being able to lift my arm above shoulder height, toss a ball, run, lift heavy things... its back to near 100%. After 6 months of pain and re-injury all it took was 2 weeks of placebo!

Infact I have had many long standing muscular issues that have been resolved by a few trips to the local placebo-ist.

If all it takes is some needles jabbed in me to trigger that and give me so much life back... then the accupunture has worked... infact it worked a lot better than the NSAIDS, stretch bands and exercises that the Sports Doc gave me... they did nothing. Were they a lesser strength placebo??
No it is not the placebo effect, it is regression to the mean.

You were injured and you got better - it would have happened with or without any form of treatment (or it would have killed you). You presume with it is due to your 'chinese placebo-ist'. Strangely enough actute strains to the supraspinatus cause those exact same symptoms you have described, the swelling take a few weeks to settle down usually with decreased use of the limb.

So you say it worked better than everything else you tried... but you tried multiple treatments, so how do you differentiate the combined affects of those treatments.

People believe what they want, which is fine, it's not my money.
 

workmx

Banned
Part of the "making people feel better" must be Hawthorne effect...

Having someone talk to you about your problem for a good amount of time, followed by 45 minutes of lying down in a quiet room with calming music, would make anyone feel better.

Is acupuncture the new age version of what my Nan would have called "a couple of Bex and a good lie down" (without the addiction and kidney disease)??? :madgrin:
 

Mywifesirrational

I however am very normal. Trust me.
Part of the "making people feel better" must be Hawthorne effect...

Having someone talk to you about your problem for a good amount of time, followed by 45 minutes of lying down in a quiet room with calming music, would make anyone feel better.

Is acupuncture the new age version of what my Nan would have called "a couple of Bex and a good lie down" (without the addiction and kidney disease)??? :madgrin:
Ben Goldacre talks exactly about this in his book, this is where the modern approach to medicine fails due to time constants, where seeing a 'clinician' of alternative medicine takes 30-60 minutes.

Bad Science - well worth a read.
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Bad-Science-Ben-Goldacre/9780007284870
 

kjd

Likes Bikes
Skeptoid, Ben Goldacre, Skepticism I love being around smart and sceptical and rational people.

Thanks you.

Here's a good one on Chinese Medicine:
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4259

Basically it was used when western and effective means were unavailable or too costly during the early days of Revolutionary China.
 

crowash

Likes Dirt
As someone who trained for 4 years at Uni to become an acupuncturist and then quit shortly after due to lack of being able to provide a reliable, evidence based service I'm not sure what side to take here. I think skepticism is healthy but good skepticism is based on looking at all the evidence not just picking your favourites. Therefore most of us should just accept that we don't know what we don't know and leave online articles written by 'experts' alone.
The stats about complications from acupuncture are unhelpful and misleading. Australia has a reasonable set of standards for delivery and needles are never reused, diseases being contracted via this mechanism would rarely if ever happen. In reality complications occur in all invasive therapies and many Western techniques have far more negative outcomes than this.

Anyway my take on it now is that it has a lot of use for reducing acute pain (placebo or not) it seems to be more effective than many other treatments. I don't beleive it has the ability to treat deeper issues leading to the acute pain like say a physio can. Acupuncturists who claim to be able to cure x,y or z should not be doing so, rather than saying that they will be taking this particular approach and they sometimes have success with it.
Like all treatments I find it comes down to a good, honest and learned practitioner not the particular therapy they practice.

All that said I haven't seen an acupuncturist in years and it wouldn't be my first port of call.
 

Trigger02

Likes Bikes and Dirt
As someone who trained for 4 years at Uni to become an acupuncturist and then quit shortly after due to lack of being able to provide a reliable, evidence based service I'm not sure what side to take here. I think skepticism is healthy but good skepticism is based on looking at all the evidence not just picking your favourites. Therefore most of us should just accept that we don't know what we don't know and leave online articles written by 'experts' alone.
The stats about complications from acupuncture are unhelpful and misleading. Australia has a reasonable set of standards for delivery and needles are never reused, diseases being contracted via this mechanism would rarely if ever happen. In reality complications occur in all invasive therapies and many Western techniques have far more negative outcomes than this.

Anyway my take on it now is that it has a lot of use for reducing acute pain (placebo or not) it seems to be more effective than many other treatments. I don't beleive it has the ability to treat deeper issues leading to the acute pain like say a physio can. Acupuncturists who claim to be able to cure x,y or z should not be doing so, rather than saying that they will be taking this particular approach and they sometimes have success with it.
Like all treatments I find it comes down to a good, honest and learned practitioner not the particular therapy they practice.

All that said I haven't seen an acupuncturist in years and it wouldn't be my first port of call.
You were a expert and quite so that'll do me, I believe the mind has a lot more to do with the effects rather than the the medicine,

Have you ever packed a spinner cone and watch the dickheads think they are stoned lol gets em everytime hahaha
 

moorey

I'm full, couldn't eat another dick
. Therefore most of us should just accept that we don't know what we don't know and leave online articles written by 'experts' alone.
In Skeptoids defence, it is based on extensive research of the available data, with links to all the research and studies cited, not just one persons opinion.
 

WolfCreekPsycho

Likes Dirt
No it is not the placebo effect, it is regression to the mean.

You were injured and you got better - it would have happened with or without any form of treatment (or it would have killed you). You presume with it is due to your 'chinese placebo-ist'. Strangely enough actute strains to the supraspinatus cause those exact same symptoms you have described, the swelling take a few weeks to settle down usually with decreased use of the limb.

So you say it worked better than everything else you tried... but you tried multiple treatments, so how do you differentiate the combined affects of those treatments.

People believe what they want, which is fine, it's not my money.
Good point, but the time line of this event is relevant.
It was not a matter of weeks, but 6 months. I had given up on on the shoulder getting any better and just accepted that it was just always going to be like that.
The reason for the placeboist was actually a week before my wedding and my wife suggested we both go get a relaxing massage.
During this the lady tried to move my arm above my shoulder (which would hurt !!) and I stopped her and told her no no no... have rotator cuff damage.
She says "i fix for yuo.. need 3 visit"
So by the time I got married and went on my honeymoon, about 1.5weeks... my shoulder was back to 99%

So yes it would have got better.... does a shoulder go from bad to good in a week after 6 months of no real improvement... unlikely, and I have hurt myself enough to know my body doesnt heal that way.
The injury was a typical superman over the bars off a wet log at stromlo (one of the log rolls early on in the loop) landed heavily arms out stretched at speed. I knew something was wrong, but it wasnt till a week later i was taking photos down at mona vale on wet rocks when I slipped and the weak arm carrying the camera tore in the joint. That dropped me like a little girl, never experienced so much pain before !

There was no combination of treatments as any "traditional" medicine had been given up on months before.

Each time I have had an injury (and specifically muscular only) where I have had treatment by a placebo-ist the results have been amazingly good. Why would I not continue?
In fact I would challenge the nay-sayers to try it yourself next time you have a muscular injury that just doesnt seem to heal. Short of a punctured lung or heart there is not much to lose, most health funds will cover this. ;)
 

crowash

Likes Dirt
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2012/s3587328.htm interesting discussion around this.

here is a link to the study:

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1357513

Essentially the study reports about acuopunture:

the effects that we found were equivalent to would be that if patients didn't have any acupuncture at all, about 30 per cent would say yes, my life has really improved.

If they had sham acupuncture, about 42.5 per cent would say that they'd experienced an important improvement in pain. If they received real acupuncture, then about half of them would say that it had made a big difference to the level of pain they experience.

So a large difference between true acupuncture and no acupuncture at all, a smaller difference between true and sham acupuncture, but one that is certainly statistically significant.
 
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