MWI, what's the science behind waiting for the HR to return to the same point each interval (which will require longer recovery as you move through the intervals) verse doing intervals on a set time frame eg. every 2 minutes? (making the later intervals progressively harder due to the higher HR). I assumed that the effort to maintain output under increased fatigue would cause the adaptations/progress.
High intensity interval training.
- Thread starter jellylegs
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MWI, what's the science behind waiting for the HR to return to the same point each interval (which will require longer recovery as you move through the intervals) verse doing intervals on a set time frame eg. every 2 minutes? (making the later intervals progressively harder due to the higher HR). I assumed that the effort to maintain output under increased fatigue would cause the adaptations/progress.
pharmaboy
Eats Squid
Just thinking out loud - option 1 means the full number of intervals can be done, option 2 means someone working harder at the start can't reach their desired output by the end and/or is sick
Full sets of intervals are awfully hard to do
Just a hint MWI, 20seconds, 1 minute, 2 minute what? I like the idea of the target - I'd set recovery at my threshold heart rate (174, 189 is max)
Mywifesirrational
I however am very normal. Trust me.
Prior to training with have worked out the HR in which the aerobic systems (ATP/pCR / glycolytic) are dominate, HR is the easiest real time measurement of this, so we do an interval moving right into the anaerobic training zone, then we monitor the rest period to ensure they have returned to the aerobic zone, so recovery is sufficient for the next interval.
It's more hassle, but it is also a much better quality of training.
If your going for a glycolytic stimulus, the rest periods are short, we only let HR drop out of the zone briefly before starting the next interval, or if going for maximal watts / power we have a longer rest, with a shorter interval to minimise fatigue, so each interval is maximised from an output point of view. Fatigue will certainly occur and after a given number of intervals it'll be significant, but that fatigue metabolically is a good stimulus for adaption, HIIT without significant fatigue is a waste of time.
First sentence is spot on, it kind of depends what you are specifically training for as to the approach you take, both work, one will be better for a specific individuals goals.
174 is pretty high is max is 189, would suggest your pretty fit? during an interval do you go to near max HR?
Inregards to timing, unfit might make is 60% predicted HR max before starting the next interval, for a well trained person, it will be 70+% of predicted HR max, they'll recover faster at a higher HR.
We can measure all this stuff in the lab during a vo2max test or just playing around on the metcart - or you can use a calculator off the google and get a prediction, which for most people is probably pretty good.
Another thing to consider, at least in track and feild intervals are often based off a given distance, as it's sport specific, can also do this on the bike to mimic sprints, short hard climbs etc.
pharmaboy
Eats Squid
I would try and avoid max in an interval , maybe 5 beats below and try and hold that amount of effort (repeatability of an interval is severely curtailed if I'm at max at the end)
So if im reading it right, specificity still counts. In our group rides, I'm good for 60seconds to keep up with anyone, but my ability to hold that speed is less than a good proportion of the group. So probably choosing vo2 time period/2
Mywifesirrational
I however am very normal. Trust me.
So whats happening is they likely have a higher vo2 max, resulting in their aerobic output being higher than yours before they reach the anerobic threshold - they can ride at a sustained pace as they are in the top end of the aerobic zone and you have shifted into the anaerobic zone to maintain that same output, after 60 seconds the glycolytic system is done for, lactic builds up and metabolic fatigue occurs.
You could always go for a 1:1 work rest ration, 1 minute at 90% max HR, then rest period for 1 minute and repeat, doesn't matter after a handful of intervals if your knackered - this is the stimulus for aerobic adaptation.
After each interval the HR will tend to not drop quite as far until after an arbitrary number of intervals, you know your done for. Then for training aim to increase the numbers of intervals, or if time shy in training, slowly reduce the rest periods by 5-10 seconds (but never both at once in the same session). edit: 2-3 sessions per week max, not on concurrent days.
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Altering the rest interval during high-intensity interval training does not affect muscle or performance adaptations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22923232
Of course the RPE goes through the roof!.. Also there are studies to suggest lengthening the rest periods when performing "maximal" efforts is beneficial.
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A few years back I got onto a few trials with a guy who was doing a Masters of Exercise Physiology at RMIT in Bundoora. I mainly wanted to do a VO2 max test without having to pay for it but ended up doing three separate trials over about 12 months or so and each of them was looking at different aspects of physiology and each one of them involved a number of deep muscle samples from my quads (I think from memory I ended up doing 16 of these samples which were not for the squeamish. For one of the trials I did a VO2 max test to establish my maximum wattage before I couldn't go any further and then at the start of the 3 week trial I had to do 1 hour at 330 Watts (70% of what I maxed out on during the VO2 Max test) and then a muscle sample was taken as follows - they gave me a small local and then used a scalpel blade to make a couple of incisions in my leg that were the full depth of the scalpel blade (didn't feel anything). They then inserted a large barrel needle of sorts (I reckon it was at least 5 mm across) and it had a vacuum pump on the top of it and one of the guys would apply vacuum to suck a bit of muscle into the end of the device and then the other guy operate a blade 4 times (rotating it 90 deg each time) and then the needle was removed with what they described as a "pea sized" bit of muscle that they could then test for various things. Anyway, they then bandaged up my leg and I had to do a 1 hour maximal effort on the ergo and at the end of the hour I had to immediately sit up and lean backwards and one of the lab assistants caught my bodyweight. I had to remove my feet from the pedals and put them up on the handlebars and they took another muscle sample straight away!! This one was much worse as the local had worn off and my HR was maxing out…..my whole leg spasmed and it felt like I was getting a really deep dead leg!!!
Anyway - back to the subject of interval training. During the 3 week trial I wasn't allowed to do any riding except for the allocated sessions which were alternating between two sessions and I only had one rest day per week. The first session was an interval session and I just checked the excel files that I have from back then (2006) and it was a 5 min warm up and then 8 x 5 min intervals at 330 Watts followed by 1 minute recovery intervals at 100 Watts. On the alternate days I had to do a 5 min warm up and then 100 minutes at 250 Watts. I did most of these sessions at home on rollers as they supplied me with a power tap rear hub on my road bike for the duration of the trial but I would go in once or twice a week to do it in the lab.
I can't remember exactly what they were studying but I was on a high-carb diet and just looked at the food record and saw that I was 97 kg back then and had to eat 732 g of carbs per day which was heaps (I think some of the other guys were on low carb diets). Anyway, at the end of four weeks I had to repeat the session with 1 hour at 330 Watts and then the muscle biopsy and the 1 hour time trial. I can't remember the exact distances that I covered but I do remember that at the 50 min mark I had completed the entire distance that I managed for the whole hour in the initial trial so it was a massive improvement!!! I also remember that the day after the trial I started riding to work again and knocked about 5 minutes off my best time ever for riding to work (it was just under 20 km) and I also went for a couple of road rides with mates and just rode away from them on the flats!!!
The trial was pretty cool - I got to do a VO2 max test and they also supplied food for the couple of days before each of the biopsy sessions and I got paid for doing it too (I think it was $1000 cash from memory). Might be time to dust off the rollers again!!!
Anyway - back to the subject of interval training. During the 3 week trial I wasn't allowed to do any riding except for the allocated sessions which were alternating between two sessions and I only had one rest day per week. The first session was an interval session and I just checked the excel files that I have from back then (2006) and it was a 5 min warm up and then 8 x 5 min intervals at 330 Watts followed by 1 minute recovery intervals at 100 Watts. On the alternate days I had to do a 5 min warm up and then 100 minutes at 250 Watts. I did most of these sessions at home on rollers as they supplied me with a power tap rear hub on my road bike for the duration of the trial but I would go in once or twice a week to do it in the lab.
I can't remember exactly what they were studying but I was on a high-carb diet and just looked at the food record and saw that I was 97 kg back then and had to eat 732 g of carbs per day which was heaps (I think some of the other guys were on low carb diets). Anyway, at the end of four weeks I had to repeat the session with 1 hour at 330 Watts and then the muscle biopsy and the 1 hour time trial. I can't remember the exact distances that I covered but I do remember that at the 50 min mark I had completed the entire distance that I managed for the whole hour in the initial trial so it was a massive improvement!!! I also remember that the day after the trial I started riding to work again and knocked about 5 minutes off my best time ever for riding to work (it was just under 20 km) and I also went for a couple of road rides with mates and just rode away from them on the flats!!!
The trial was pretty cool - I got to do a VO2 max test and they also supplied food for the couple of days before each of the biopsy sessions and I got paid for doing it too (I think it was $1000 cash from memory). Might be time to dust off the rollers again!!!
pharmaboy
Eats Squid
No effect.
Max HR on age calculation, is a broad estimate for a population. YOUR maximum heart rate is what you have measured at maximum exertion ( usually moments before vomiting, or at least feeling like you will)
My maxHR along with many others here is 20 off the estimated version. Use your measured one as basis for zones
HamboCairns
Thanks for all the bananas
I joined a Crossfit gym (was advertised as bootcamp) and already I've damaged my triceps. Not really impressed so far although the class setup does keep me motivated.
I'm thinking that compound weight training and more riding is the way forward.
I'm thinking that compound weight training and more riding is the way forward.
Hamsta
Likes Bikes and Dirt
The gym I visit is considering a HIIT programme but using bikes. One of the physiologists, who is a track cyclist in their spare time, was speculating that it will be 30 minutes of interval training hell on a stationary bike...half joking that participants will need a letter from a GP saying they are good to participate. I like the idea of low impact but short and brutally hard on the cardio vascular system and legs myself.
Hamsta
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Tried something whilst riding yesterday.....single leg peddling. Start on flat ground and leave one leg clipped in and pedal. The idea is to encourage development of a smooth cadence whilst also loading up the legs individually. I found it a little difficult at first finding the right gear. Once I get the gear selection sorted on flat ground then it will be time to starting trying the exercise on gentle hills.
Ivan
Eats Squid
Sorry, late to this thread and haven't read the preceding pages, but how can 30 minutes of training be considered HIIT? Shouldn't you be totally destroyed after 5 or 10 minutes of HIIT
I did the HIIT method described in the below documentary (3x 20 second intervals) and was ready to spew at the end.
[video=youtube;v7-h_w7bJrU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7-h_w7bJrU[/video]
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pharmaboy
Eats Squid
Presumably Ivan, a 30min HIIT session would include a warmup of 10 minutes and a cool down, with intervals with rests is the middle. 30 minutes seems likely to me to be 10 min warm up 6x1m intervals with 1 minute rests between, 8 minutes cool down . Or some other calculated use of the time, but you get the idea
Hamsta
Likes Bikes and Dirt
I'm guessing the 30 minutes would involve time after cool down to stretch out the legs really well? The good thing about spin classes is that now I work based upon average watts and peak watts so I would have some baseline to determine if I am working hard enough during any proposed HIIT. Personally...I really dislike the sensation that I am going to vomit and would rather work based around watts and heart rate.
Ivan
Eats Squid
I guess that depends of what regimen of HIIT is being applied? If it is supposed to be a maximal effort over a very short period then riding to a wattage is pacing yourself not maximal. I guess that aligns with Gibala or Zuniga regimens below
Apologies if I'm on the wrong track here, I am a total noob at this stuff.
[h=3]WIKIPEDIA
Peter Coe regimen[edit][/h]A type of high-intensity interval training with short recovery periods was used in the 1970s by the athletics coach Peter Coe when setting sessions for his son Sebastian Coe. Inspired by the principles propounded by the German coach and university professorWoldemar Gerschler and the Swedish physiologist Per-Olof Åstrand, Coe set sessions involving repeated fast 200 metre runs with only 30 seconds recovery between each fast run.[SUP][5][/SUP]
[h=3]Tabata regimen[edit][/h]A version of HIIT was based on a 1996 study[SUP][6][/SUP] by Professor Izumi Tabata (田畑泉) et al. initially involving Olympic speedskaters.[SUP][7][/SUP] The study used 20 seconds of ultra-intense exercise (at an intensity of about 170% of VO[SUB]2[/SUB]max) followed by 10 seconds of rest, repeated continuously for 4 minutes (8 cycles). The exercise was performed on a mechanically braked cycle ergometer. Tabata called this the IE1 protocol.[SUP][8][/SUP] In the original study, athletes using this method trained 4 times per week, plus another day of steady-state training, and obtained gains similar to a group of athletes who did steady state training (70% VO[SUB]2[/SUB]max) 5 times per week. The steady state group had a higher VO[SUB]2[/SUB]max at the end (from 52 to 57 mL/(kg•min)), but the Tabata group had started lower and gained more overall (from 48 to 55 mL/(kg•min)). Also, only the Tabata group had gained anaerobic capacity benefits. It is important to note that in the original study from 1996, participants were disqualified if they could not keep a steady cycling pace of 85RPM for the full 20 seconds of work.
In popular culture, "Tabata training" has now come to refer to a wide variety of HIIT protocols and exercise regimens that may or may not have similar benefits to those found in Tabata's original study.
[h=3]Gibala regimen[edit][/h]Professor Martin Gibala and his team at McMaster University in Canada have been researching high-intensity exercise for several years. Their 2009 study on students[SUP][9][/SUP] uses 3 minutes for warming up, then 60 seconds of intense exercise (at 95% of VO[SUB]2[/SUB]max) followed by 75 seconds of rest, repeated for 8–12 cycles (sometimes referred to as "The Little Method"). Subjects using this method trained 3 times per week obtained gains similar to what would be expected from subjects who did steady state (50–70% VO[SUB]2[/SUB]max) training five times per week. While still a demanding form of training, this exercise protocol could be used by the general public with nothing more than an average exercise bike.
Gibala's group published a less intense version of their regimen in a 2011 paper in Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. This was intended as a gentler option for sedentary people who had done no exercise for over a year. It included 3 minutes of warm-up, 10 repetitions of 60-second bursts at 60% peak power (80- 95% of heart rate reserve) each followed by 60 seconds of recovery, and then a 5-minute cool-down.[SUP][10][/SUP]
[h=3]Zuniga regimen[edit][/h]Jorge Zuniga, assistant professor of exercise science at Creighton University, set out to determine how to fit the highest volume of work and oxygen consumption into the smallest amount of time. He found that intervals of 30 seconds at 90% of maximum power output followed by 30 seconds of rest allowed a for the highest VO[SUB]2[/SUB] consumption and the longest workout duration at specified intensity. Alternative protocols considered included 100% of maximum power output on the same interval schedule, similar to the Coe Regimen, and 90% of maximum power output for three minutes, similar to traditional interval training. [SUP][11][/SUP]
Zuniga's protocol has been implemented to great success by his students participating in Creighton's Army ROTC program. Cadets completing the protocol twice a week saw greater improvements in APFT scores than in years past.
[h=3]Timmons regimen[edit][/h]Jamie Timmons, professor of systems biology at the University of Loughborough, is a proponent of a few short bursts of flat-out intensity. In a BBC Horizon programme in February 2012, he put Michael Mosley on an exercise bike regimen consisting of three sets of about 2 minutes of gentle pedaling followed by 20 second bursts of cycling at maximum effort. This was done three times a week for a total of 21 minutes of exercise per week (3 minutes of intense exercise), plus warm-up and recovery time.
Hamsta
Likes Bikes and Dirt
I'm green as grass regarding this as well. Thankyou for posting the above information. I'm relying upon the advice of several exercise physiologists who are cyclist or triathletes, teach group fitness classes and provide personal training and coaching services outside of the gym. EDIT: what I do know is that during a spin session I try to maintain average output in watts that is greater than my previous visit, then also try to also exceed my previous max watt output.
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Calvin27
Eats Squid
Stuff that. Just get a fixie. Seriously, doing track training was a massive boost to technique, skills and powarrrr
Mywifesirrational
I however am very normal. Trust me.
This is absolutely brutal - I'd do it more often but I hate it! Much like a wingate 30 second test.
Currently working with a bloke in a lab who was part of this study - it has measurable health benefits, but not enough stimulus for a training program, hence most of the protocols you linked generally have 10+ repetitions.
It just depends what energy system you want to target, ATP=PCr vs Glycolytic (immediate vs short term energy supply), although either are good for aerobic.