Holden out of Oz in 2017

[born-again-biker]

Jumping back in the thread a bit, but I'm often surprised people cite the VE/VF Commodore as the pinnacle of "locally designed" Holdens.

Pretty much as soon as I saw them, I thought they'd be the death of the Commodore (and probably Holden given almost all of their small cars have typically been pretty shit).

I'm sure the VE/VF's were acceptably well engineered - but they're just so friggen huge. I get that the penis-extension brigade would like that, but for the everyday driver/fleet/taxi market, an upsized huge exterior body and (relatively) small interior spaces (for the size) just seemed to totally ignore the market changes with more and more people looking to down-size their cars (SUV's/4WD's are another story altogether). Would have been interesting if that modern Torana (mid-szie) concept had made it to production - that one would have had a lot more mass-market appeal IMO.

Yeah I think the size thing played a role.
But then, the Camry still sells...?

 

[Dales Cannon]

Sticker has been around for a while. VIN decoding will show the place of manufacture. I guessed this is what it would be but you never know.

 

[Cardy George]

Yeah I think the size thing played a role.
But then, the Camry still sells...?

The lack of usable size is what put us out of a third commodore in a row

 

[born-again-biker]

The lack of usable size is what put us out of a third commodore in a row

R.I.P. proper station wagons

 

[mas2]

Jumping back in the thread a bit, but I'm often surprised people cite the VE/VF Commodore as the pinnacle of "locally designed" Holdens.

Pretty much as soon as I saw them, I thought they'd be the death of the Commodore (and probably Holden given almost all of their small cars have typically been pretty shit).

I'm sure the VE/VF's were acceptably well engineered - but they're just so friggen huge. I get that the penis-extension brigade would like that, but for the everyday driver/fleet/taxi market, an upsized huge exterior body and (relatively) small interior spaces (for the size) just seemed to totally ignore the market changes with more and more people looking to down-size their cars (SUV's/4WD's are another story altogether). Would have been interesting if that modern Torana (mid-szie) concept had made it to production - that one would have had a lot more mass-market appeal IMO.

I'm more suprised ford survived the AU falcon.

 

[born-again-biker]

I'm more suprised ford survived the AU falcon.

Hey you leave my ute outta this!
It's beautiful.

 

[Haakon]

Yeah I think the size thing played a role.
But then, the Camry still sells...?

It’s a smaller car, or at least has the reputation of economy.

I reckon Mitsubishi might have survived if the 380 was made with the 4 cylinder as was available in the USDM Galant and sold as a competitor to the Camry - instead they went after falcadore sales and failed...

Speaking of decent cars that are worth nothing as orphans.

 

[beeb]

Yeah I think the size thing played a role.
But then, the Camry still sells...?

I think it's been such a gradual evolution with the Camry that's it's easier to not notice the growth. That and VE's debuted in '06 and are still roughly 50mm longer and wider than the current Camry (though almost all of that extra width would be the bulbous wheel arches to be fair).

It's not exactly a scientific thing in my mind though - they just look like a big, heavy, cheaply made car and I obviously think that hurt them. I had a lot of mates with 2nd hand VN-VZ Commodores (and were getting to around the age/financial stage of life where they were ready to buy new cars) and they were all already struggling to find car spaces big enough they could fit at least 4/5ths of their car into - then along comes the VE, which is a lot bigger again, the Alloytec motors were having heaps of dramas, the base models looked very cheap and nasty, and the 'Sportswagon' were a bad joke and retained none of what wagon buyers were looking for (ie: space, good access to it and general versatility. Totally understand where @Cardy George is coming from there - Narrow cargo space, high boot floor, bugger-all rear visibility, low roof, angled rear door/hatch impeeding storage space, and a protruding bumper inhibiting loading. Yeah, nah. So much fail in one package.

It might have been GM's 'billion dollar baby', but the excessive size was designed into the platform predominantly for the US and Middle-Eastern markets (and U.S. police vehicle platforms), but the exchange rate killed those plans before they ever really got off the ground. Some would argue bad luck, but I'd argue it was more over-capitalising without doing enough market research beforehand and ignoring the changing requirements of their primary/local market.

Will happily put my hand up and say I'm not a large car guy though, so am pretty inherently biased in that sense. But majority of the population are also living in urban areas where big sedans just dont make any sense anymore.

 

[born-again-biker]

Yeah that last VE wagon was useless.
Totally agree Holden over invested and under researched.
But I liked the SS LS version.... I've got a 'thing' for fast wagons

I always liked Falcon wagons for their cargo size. Plenty of tradies used'em.
Neighbour has one (BF I think?) and he lays the seats down and carries ENORMOUS model aeroplanes & choppers down to the park.
Can't figure out if his hobby is more expensive than Mtn Bikes

 

[hifiandmtb]

I dare say his crashes are more expensive than ours.

 

[Asininedrivel]

I'm more suprised ford survived the AU falcon.

I like how the floppy, gooby looking AU Falcon now has a small but noisy armada of defendees that seem to be attracted to it precisely because of its unlovable appearance. Makes me proud to be Strayan.

Realistically though, Ford survived because it went into overdrive and had a significant replacement (the BA) on the market within four years that was initially very well received (caveat: no idea what the subsequent reliability has been like) and re-entered the horsepowa wars with new V8s, hilariously op turbo sixes and the introduction of FPV with cars named after natural disasters getting them Wheels and Motor cover stories again. Fully sique

I reckon Mitsubishi might have survived if the 380 was made with the 4 cylinder as was available in the USDM Galant and sold as a competitor to the Camry - instead they went after falcadore sales and failed...

Not having a wagon 380 at launch was pretty unforgivable too. Pity, the stuff coming out of Tonsley Park was underrated imo. I had a TR Magna back in my younger stupider days. Tried to kill it. Couldn't.

 

[Haakon]

Lack of a 380 wagon was because it was a USDM Galant retooled for local production. And try seppos don’t do wagons so there wasn’t one.

There was an SUV version of the 380/Galant in the US though, would have been interesting if they’d had a crystal ball and built that!

 

[Asininedrivel]

Narrow cargo space, high boot floor, bugger-all rear visibility, low roof, angled rear door/hatch impeeding storage space, and a protruding bumper inhibiting loading. Yeah, nah. So much fail in one package.

Looked alright though.

I remember back in 2004(?) Holden released that Torana concept car that previewed the VE styling but as a mid-sized RWD package. In hindsight that was the car GM probably should have built - ignoring that packaging and interior room would've been hopeless compared to the Camry.

 

[beeb]

Looked alright though.

I remember back in 2004(?) Holden released that Torana concept car that previewed the VE styling but as a mid-sized RWD package. In hindsight that was the car GM probably should have built - ignoring that packaging and interior room would've been hopeless compared to the Camry.

Yep, would've made Mondeo-sized cars acceptable for the bogans. Plus a lift-back sedan is so much better in terms of practicality than conventional boots on the modern aerodynamic shapes.

 

[Calvin27]

I reckon Mitsubishi might have survived if the 380 was made with the 4 cylinder

Matter of perspectives. I rekon the move to SUV would have wiped them sooner or later and local production was never going to last and real length of time.

As for Commo vs the camry, the big problem was rwd and the reduction in boot space. Also I dare say the camry would be suffering a similar fate to the accord and to a lesser extent the mazda 6 and subaru liberty if not for their hybrid drivetrain.

 

[born-again-biker]

Looked alright though.

I remember back in 2004(?) Holden released that Torana concept car that previewed the VE styling but as a mid-sized RWD package. In hindsight that was the car GM probably should have built - ignoring that packaging and interior room would've been hopeless compared to the Camry.

I liked it....

 

[Asininedrivel]

I liked it....

Bit too much Cruze around the headlights, otherwise still looking pretty sharp!

 

[born-again-biker]

I wonder where it is now?
....and who gets to keep it?

 

[Tubbsy]

A good friend worked in product development at Holden at the time. There was a lot of enthusiasm internally for the Torana concept, but the dealer network (who were still doing very well at the time) weren’t keen on it.

I remember seeing it at the motor show and, lurid paint aside, it was a nicely proportioned car.

 

[Haakon]

Another missed shot here

https://www.whichcar.com.au/features/holdens-four-door-monaro-hybrid