Is this the right attitude towards mtb advocacy and trail maintenance?

[DeBloot]

5% rule peeps
Spend 5% of your on trail time helping to maintain it
On trail time includes gas bagging and waiting for mates to catch up

This equated to 3 minutes per hour
I think the average rider would spend 5 hours a week on trail
That's 15 minutes a week or 1 hour per month

So every 3 months you forgo a ride and get yourself along to a maintenance day
You spend 3 hours with like minded peeps helping create a work of art that is a gas to ride
You might even get a sausage sizzle at the end if you're lucky

Advocacy in the form of letter writing, meetings etc is all a bonus

Anybody who reads or posts on forums I would consider a 'committed' rider (passionate if you like)
And, IMHO, are selfish if they can't contribute in this way

 

[FR Drew]

And here again we get the guilt trip :-(

"If you post on forums but don't attend build days you're selfish."

I'm afraid it doesn't make for more attendees, doesn't make for more committed attendees and just serves to get folks offside.

I used to do the same thing (guilt trip ride buddies for not showing up to build days) until I realised that I was doing damage to the cause rather than assisting it.

 

[taibo]

I used to do the same thing until I realised that I was doing damage to the cause rather than assisting it.

I think that this is what all those that are feeling guilty need to realise. Feeling guilty won't get you new trails, feeling guilty won't keep you on existing trails, feeling guilty will eventually leave you with no trails.

I really like the idea of 5%. An hour a month is hardly anything, some of us probably spend more than an hour a week on RB.

 

[Slowman]

...
I disagree ... together we stand divided we fall ... your points perpetuate the current status quo, which IMO sucks.

NH, bloody nonsense, all this thread is about is a bunch of wankers, me included, talking about themselves. Let's not talk about ourselves, let's talk about what needs to be done and get on with it. Besides, the status quo is shifting. There was no dialog before with NPWS and now one has opened up.

This thread will do squat, people will agree or disagree and do neither more nor less than they have done before. Telling riders they are this or that because they don't do this or that will not get them along to volunteer, unless of course it gets them steamed enough they come along for the sole purpose of settling a score maybe that's the technique, throw a shovel in their hand and try and talk them down but at the same time use their angry energy to dig faster. Novel approach - just wear a motor bike helmet just in case.

Saying to people they have not done enough implies that you know everything about them, which you don't and making those kinds of evaluations is simply arrogant. You don't like unjustified criticism but you are doing exactly the same. Mary MacKillop wouldn't do it! There are sentimental fools and judgemental fools in this world and the world is quite fond of the sentimental kind. And me, I'm sorry I'm getting a bit ornamental

 

[DeBloot]

If anybody feels guilty, then they need to ask why they feel guilty
Oh, he makes me feel guilty - it doesn't make sense
The guilt is within

Reminds me of the movie Chopper
When Read punches his girlfriends mother
And turns to his GF and says 'now see what you made me do'

Bad analogy, but there you go

Anyway, it's my 2c, and I agree with Slowman
This is quite pointless

Oh, and with the forum thing I was trying to make the point
There are recreational/ fire road riders
And riders of single track/ built trails
I would imagine that those who frequent forums are the latter

Bloot over and out

 

[Big JD]

Change

Let me start by saying that l did feel alittle guilty about the lack of (formal) building l have done. That is my own feels and by no means applicable for others. As a result of posting here l have been approached to assist on a future build. No guilt trip placed on me just given some options/ dates / different trail options (closer to where l live) and time frames and l couldnt be happier. I am really looking forward to it - chance to meet some new MTBers and contribute in an environment where l feel comfortable in my limited trail building experience. Trav is spot on and explains what works for him and the trails he builds. If he didnt love it he wouldnt do it. Thats not to say that there are times when he struggles to find the motivation - normal.

I personally am not a fan of "no build, no ride" because policing it can lead to tension and certainly an small workforce working efficiently is more desirable than an inefficient large group - large groups require more leaders/supervisors (few and far between). Each club should have its own policies and when you join that club you are informed of their trail building way and you can make your own educated decision.

If you want to change the culture of an organisation - you first have to have a measure (barometer) - a base from which to start - from which you can set goals. How are the people in this organisation feeling, what is important to them and how is morale. In a community of MTBers you have such a broad cross section of individuals that it would be difficult to gauge the general feeling but at a club level it is more transparent.
To change a set culture you need to change behaviours. To change behaviours you need to increase communication / awareness of the change and empower people to accept/explore the opportunities/ culture you are trying to affect. People are often reluctant to change because they fear what they dont know. You can often alleviate those fears by communicating and building awareness but if an individual does not what to accept the change through willingness then there is little you can do except lead by example and stay firm to the correct path/goal. Look at racism, homophobia, bigotry and sexism as examples of behaviours that affect a community/culture - how do you improve that culture - educate, inform at at times through direct action. To explore the opportunities of a new way of thinking people need to be open to change, have the opportunity to discuss, be heard, be informed and at times be directed through the the change process.

I was involved in a lobby group in Brisbane in the late 90s / early 00s to protect the live music industry in the Valley from new property owners (noise complaints). We were pushing shit up hill for a long time until we we were able to gauge the culture and the level of support for ideas of the group. The turning point for us was when we made governments aware of the cultural significance of the music culture. We had the local bars /clubs on board obviously because they reaped in the cash and the musicians were sorted. When we highlighted the wealth a vibrant music industry brings to a precinct/city/State/Nation we were able to empower a community to explore change, make changes and create strong outcomes. Wouldn't take much for government to see the massive opportunities for a culture/society that spends less time on the couch and more time ripping up beautifully designed and maintained trails across this stunning bush. Hell NZ have it right - no shortage of trail builders there - they use low level prisoners / community service individuals to build and maintain many of the trail centres across the country (Hamner Springs). If l was in prison would l like to rot in my cell or get out in the open air and help to design, build and create cool trails?

"The only certainty in life is change and the only thing to fear about change is inaction." You know you dont have to change - survival is not mandatory.
I believe the OP felt there was an issue and through posting/blogging wished to raise his concerns - valid / perceived or exhagerated - doesnt matter - forums like this can often lack the sensitivity you are trying to convey or worse - magnify it. Oh and please your posts need to be shorter - like l can talk. Perhaps you could sound out your direct community, gauge the response and tailor your response to the broader community. Forums can be rather volatile because we lack to ability to deliver a response/post and engage all senses - we can only typing words. No harm done.
Have a good day
JD

 

[martinpb]

NH, bloody nonsense, all this thread is about is a bunch of wankers, me included, talking about themselves.

Three points:

I'd say this is total crap - the discussion has altered my views on how to do forward, it's brought at least one person forward to do some trail work, and it's offered us a chance to evaluate what we're doing right and wrong. If we only ever talk in the abstract we're going to struggle to communicate what we feel that the the MTB community needs to the members of that community - we could be right or wrong in our assessments of those needs, but at least people have some idea about the factors that are present. There is always going to be a segment of any group that takes more than it gives, there will always be a perception that some people are in that group when you can't see what they are doing when you're not looking, but as a group we (the people posting here) are trying to make things happen and instigate a cultural shift so that riders take ownership of the trails they ride regularly. Now is a great time to be making these moves as the community of MTB riders grows - if new riders take ownership then in the long term we will move to a situation where this whole thread will be redundant, because a significant fraction of riders will be doing some and those that aren't won't be missed in the grand equation.

What i find ironic is that there seems to be an undercurrent of self serving denial of responsibilty for use of a shared community resourse here on RB - but out on the trails, there seems to be plenty of people who wouldn't know rotorburn from gravelrash, but seem to either: get out and do a bit on there own if they think they are competent to do so; or are looking (maybe not too hard, but still open to finding out and getting out) for a group who can help them be involved. What is also a little disturbing is that the attitude that comes across from some of the more reveared builders is one of "unless you already have the skills, we don't want your help" - I feel this is very unhelpful as there seems to be a large pool of people who would like to help and are willing to learn, but if the experienced builders would rather carry on plowing their own furrow rather than leaverage their skills by teaching good practice and building skills, then they are going to be fixing up trails with their elite trail crews, but effectively on their own, for ever more.

The "no dig - no ride" motto is totally shit - but i've got onto a mate with a PR background about the "I dig - I ride" idea. At the weekend we got out and did some on our local trails with at least one person who turned up at least partly out of guilt. Her assessment of the day on the track - brilliant and looking forward to a bit more when she's got some time. She had fun with the people she worked with, got to fix two things that had stopped her riding parts of the trail for ages, saw at the end of the day the product of her work, saw during the day people riding over the bits that were just finished as a method to test them and generally finished up feeling rather good about the whole thing. She came in with an afternoon sat down with Trail Solutions and a desire to swing a mattok and left with a bit more knowledge, a good feeling about her work, experience of putting the book into action (always tricky) and a desire to do a bit more (not to mention a shed full of ideas on how to do some of the stuff more effectively, but we're a learning group so ideas are all good for us)

 

[Justin Fox]

I founded BMU because someone on Farkin was attacking me for being more into building bikes than riding them (I didn't and still do not see anything wrong with that at all). In trying to defend myself I was banned off Farkin.

I created BMU because at the time I had a massive passion for bikes. It was all I thought about when I woke up and when I put my head to the pillow at night. Through BMU I've met a lot of very cool people and I've learnt a lot about riding and bikes too.

I met Grant through BMU and instantly liked the guy. He's obviously a very passionate rider, and a great rider to boot. I also respect the trail maintenance he does but I think the way he's gone about pushing others do do trail maintenance is overly aggressive. It's pretty obvious by reading his recent posts on BMU that he has gotten his panties in a bunch!

- BMU is not a legal association, business, business name or anything but an internet forum.

- BMU is not a mountain bike/trail maintenance specific forum.

- BMU's most active thread is the Velovixens thread (warning it's girls on bikes, so it's potentially not safe for work!).

- BMU has 300 active members, RB has 8,102 active members. If you looked at the ratios, there are probably more people on BMU that do trail maintenance than on RB?!

In the end of the day I can't see how you could possibly pigeon hole BMU members as being "locusts" who do nothing good for the greater community. As a group we have raised a lot of cash for good causes via organised rides (we were the 2nd highest fund raisers for the recent Woodford to Glenbrook ride) and I know that I alone have gotten a LOT of people into riding over the past few years.

I also know for a fact that Grant and Jing have not gotten on that well over the past year or so and I can't help but think nerves were hit.

Grant asked Jing to post his personal blog post up on BMU for discussion. Jing refused and so Grant decided to post it up himself, despite Jing not giving him permission to do so.

In the end of the day I think people like Grant need to exist and I'm always up for respecting extremists (each to their own). I'm glad someone's out there chaining themselves up to whaling boats for Greenpeace but if that person was trying to bring me down for not joining them out there they can go screw themselves.

 

[Dozer]

Wow, the Velovixens thread is great!

 

[Big JD]

Guilt

If anybody feels guilty, then they need to ask why they feel guilty
Oh, he makes me feel guilty - it doesn't make sense
The guilt is within

Reminds me of the movie Chopper
When Read punches his girlfriends mother
And turns to his GF and says 'now see what you made me do'

Bad analogy, but there you go

Anyway, it's my 2c, and I agree with Slowman
This is quite pointless

Oh, and with the forum thing I was trying to make the point
There are recreational/ fire road riders
And riders of single track/ built trails
I would imagine that those who frequent forums are the latter

Bloot over and out

Bloot l tend to agree that if you bother to post or even access a forum like ths then you would generally be more passionate about MTBs and trails but not necessarily committed.
Yes guilt is internal, intangable and difficult to measure and everyone is effected by different intensitys of pressure impossed. If l felt a little bit of pressure or manufacture enough guilt /awareness to post, ring my local club or buy Trav a carton of beer then that is not necessarily a bad thing - for me. A little motivation perhaps rather than guilt. Should we be looking at ways to motivate rather than apply the guilt trips. If l am pressured to do something because of guilt the quality of that task may be lacking - but motivate me and chances are the experience will be more positive because l am engaged and actioning change on my own terms.
Just a thought
JD
See l have alot of time on my hands.

 

[Nerf Herder]

Justin ... its not about you or your community ... although it was the trigger. No need for defence ... or offence in Grant's case.

Slowman and Andy ... I disagree "We" make it pointless ... but if we are open and see the value in discussion then this could be step one.

Martin ... we're on the same wave length ... except its not totally shit

My sweat shop in the Philippines is working on a Tee as I type

 

[Big JD]

Velovixens

Wow, the Velovixens thread is great!

+ 1
add to favourites
I just fell in love twelve times. Thank you Mr Fox - you have an eye for detail.
JD

 

[DeBloot]

Nerf. Point taken - it's not pointless
So I'll post again

Justin- I don't know you, but I miss you
That is gold (need a jaw drop icon)
I always found your threads interesting

JD. Yes. Motivation rather than guilt.
Doing things out of guilt rarely last and just lead to resentment

If one person says 'you know, I reckon I could give up a ride every so often to help out'
Then this thread will have been totally worth it

 

[MBU]

Trail advocacy and building post #3
Posted on 14/10/2010 by jingers
Just by using this title alone i will get another 100+ hits. Such is the power of controversy. It occured to me recently that people have called me thin skinned. Not just 1 actually a few. I had a pretty long think about it and thought it over and considered their point of views but decided to disagree.

I posted what i posted not because of personal reasons. I didn’t read something on the forum i wasn’t happy about and then decided to blow up. I simply saw a need to voice what i was feeling in regards to the issues of trail advocacy and the way it is often presented these few days especially on BMU forum. I do not think this is thin skinned. I think this is called addressing issues. Plus i am sure most of you guys reading right now most likely hate my guts and since i am still posting that is a pretty clear indication of my skin thickness.

So onwards to the real topics at hand. Trail advocacy/building. I had a talk yesterday with a guy named Tai. We had a discussion in regards to many different topics in regards to mtb trails and it was decently decent. I say this because in the midst of all this discussion, he helped me, maybe indirectly to realise what needs to be done and how it can be potentially addressed. The issues i am talking about here is unrelated to my previous two posts in that it isn’t a reaction purely based on how i felt we were treated unfairly but rather issues that deal with where we go from here. IE how do we take what we have discussed and use it for the better of the mtb community. So i will NOT be talking about BMU vs RB vs other communities and how i feel it is unfair here. That is done. Done in the previous two posts and done in the forum threads that blew up on the Internet.

I realised that many of us “not just bmu people judging from some of the responses” do want to help but trail work ie actual trail maintenance is a little inaccessible. No matter what you say, without the right people, right connection it is slightly daunting to go about. People will say stuff like “if you are dedicated you can do it” and yes you are correct but not everyone is as dedicated as everyone else *refer to my first 2 blog posts*. So what am i going to do about it? Well i am going to dedicate myself to making trail work more accessible.

There you go i said it. I want to make trail work more accessible and friendly to potential people that have always thought about it but never turned up. For people who have less dedication than the most hardcore people. To let those people know that a little dedication is better than no dedication and that even the littlest dedication is more than appreciated as they are already 1 step ahead. I honestly believe this is the next step to a healthier trail system across Australia. So i am going to go through the “daunting” process myself so others don’t have to. I kinda wished i had someone to guide me along but i have attempted and completed things i believe that are just as hard in my life time so what is a new challenge?

I have my IMBA trail solutions book on order and i am reading IMBA pages in regards to various solutions. As a trail rider i have often thought that certain sections could be done better. More flow and i guess this is my time to express that in actual trail shaping changes with the help and advice from others of course. IMO trail work is fun. I have never doubted that. I reckon you can make it as fun if not more fun than a ride day and i reckon it is all about marketing. The current trail advocacy people obiviously don’t market too well and i reckon that is something i can greatly build upon and possibly bring more people to. You guys already mentioned we post a lot of pics and videos and i intend to stretch that to potential build days. Showing people that previously would never consider trail work that trail work is actually fun. Pics and videos do this much better than you telling your mate and your mate telling your mates that trail work is actually fun.

I intend to get the different techniques of trail building down pat over time and start a series of DIY guides for EVERYONE to view. IE how to stop the annoying rocks at appin’s roll down from moving all the time. If not possible what can be done as a temp fix in the best possible way? How about what to do in the event of a downed tree or branch? Of course i will consult a few people and ask if i am digging a big hole or not but i am hoping with IMBA’s guide and more experience my posts will be just as good as Grant’s or any one of you trail workers. I am doing this out of my own spare time because i realised not everyone has the time to do so and that isn’t wrong. I am going to do this for the love of MTB and not because i want to simply appease others or get in their good books. If members on our forum do not turn up to trail days so be it. I will not treat them as negative contributing members knowing that they have contributed in other ways to our sport *hell even a simple bike purchase is contributing if you want to be super anal*.

I am suggesting for BMU to have a trail advocacy section as well so on the public front we don’t look like locusts. I know we are not but people do and we need to address this. Bmu people do respect and care about the trails and i can tell you this because i am thankful to god/trailworkers/whoever that has maintened and built and advocated for a trail everytime i carve a section of a singletrack that gives me that buzz. The one and same buzz i am sure all of you feel.

As an aside one little tid bit of information which noone but a few knows.

On one sunny morning ride at loftus oval myself and a friend ran into a couple of rangers clearing out branches. We stopped, talked to them, introduced BMU and told them how much we appreciate their work and how we want to give back. We told them because we rode the trails so much we feel we need to do work on it. 1-2 months later loftus oval maintence days was setup and BMU members were turning up. In small numbers? yes. There working in earnest and for the best of our community? yes.

This is exciting times for me, let’s see where this goes from here like someone said on the forums.

 

[Dozer]

What is it exactly that you are trying to gain from this? To me it is not a big deal and doesn't need the effort put into it..............

 

[Nerf Herder]

Encourage more people to participate ...

To encourage those with knowledge to educate.

To highlight to those that Do not currently participate that they can influence events. With a little effort.

more hands means light work ... (potentially) which means more riding. Martin can you run this by your PR mate. Feel free to sexy it up.

 

[ido09s]

have you written a submission to the NPWS paper ? spent approx 20 to 30 minutes on the NPWS discussion paper website and added comments on it in line with your thinking of this sport and the topic?? ... pretty much like surfing a forum and posting on it? If not why not ? are your circumstances such that you are too busy for this ?

If you have then "You Dig It" and Thanks for taking the time.

That i have Nerf. E-mails were sent when Manly Dam was threatened and my submissions were made on the NPWS discussion paper so quickly i made the first page (my name is Brad Smith)

I dont have a lot of time left to get out and physically dig. My Mon-Fri job consists of 7.30 to 5 and i do some towie work over the weekend. I often leave my girlfriend at home to clean "OUR' house by herself and i dont feel real great doing it, but unless i do it occasionally i dont get to ride a lot. As it is i do one lap of the Dam a week and thats about the extent of my riding. I dont ride it after rain and i kinda consider that a part of my input to its maintenance.

Does this make me a bad person for not getting blisters on my hands, i hope not, but according to some people it obviously does

 

[Nerf Herder]

Good on you Brad thats all I'm asking ... get involved in whatever capacity you can.

 

[Moggio]

Does this make me a bad person for not getting blisters on my hands, i hope not, but according to some people it obviously does

In some ways to me this is the crux of the cookie.... Its doing what is needed at the time.

Where I am located we need people now helping with advocacy at meetings, letter writing and lobbying. In a few months we will need blisters for building. After that when maintenace is required we will need less hands once again.

Obviously most riders don't know what is going on in their area wrt advocacy or trail maintenace, however if you do know because you are part of a club or a regular rider in an area where trail work is advertised you should feel some responsibilty for helping. Not everything is someone elses problem.

These days riders have a preference for single track over fire trails which was more prevelent 10 years ago. However single track doesn't just appear or stay running nice without a hell of a lot of work. Ignoring that responisibity when you know better can not really be justified.

What needs to be promoted is this level of responsibity, you may not need to have to pay to ride somewhere but there is some cost, even if it is DeBloot's 5% rule. Its just good manners.

I think a lot of riders would like to help in some way even if going out and digging isn't their thing. However I do think there are a lot of riders that dump their old tubes and Gu wrappers; rip up berms, ride in mud, disloge rocks and leave them dislodged; not pick up branches fallen over the track after storms and so on and on but basically expect the trails to be there for them because they are so special. That's the mentality that needs to change.

If everyone picked up tools we would have too much unskilled labour in too little area to build. However a greater percentage and change in mentallity is worth aiming for.

 

[DeBloot]

This is indeed the crux of the cookie and well said Mog

Using the 5% rule ido
Say you do 2 laps of the dam a week and take an hour each lap
6 minutes a week = 5 hours of trail work a year

I know there is no trail work at the dam etc
But just as an example
Is 5 hours a year too much to ask from someone who spends 2 hours a week riding on any built and maintained trail?

BTW, I'm not having a go at you ido
Just using the Dam and you as an example to illustrate my point