Israel ship attack [PAWN content]

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Not sure ISrael would have told the US any more than that they were going to interdict and enforce the blockade. I'm not sure that the Israelis expected the resistance that they met on the Mamara anyway. They probably would have gone in very differently had they expected the greeting they got. If they didn't expect this then I don't know why.....
 

Elbo

pesky scooter kids git off ma lawn
I'm very interested in this topic, but don't know enough myself to express an opinion. It certainly seems like they were cornered into a position where any action would bring criticism… a highly strategic move. Will keep reading this thread.

One question, Israel has a 'contraband' list of items not allowed into Gaza, how do they enforce this? I assume they check each boat at port before it is unloaded, then confiscate items from there?… Or is it logical to board a ship and check its contents whilst at sea and turn it around before it docks.
Essentially what I'm asking is: is the way they have done this the exception, or the rule?

Another article originating from within Israel.
Haaretz Service said:
Israel envoy in Geneva: Gaza flotilla activists linked to terror groups
Aharon Leshno Yaar tells UN Rights Council that Turkish-based IHH raises funds and finances terror for Hamas around the world.

By Haaretz Service

Israel, in the dock at the top United Nations human rights body over its bloody raid on a humanitarian aid flotilla en route to the Gaza Strip, accused the activists on Tuesday of being a "lynch mob" with ties to terror groups including the Islamist Hamas.

But Israel appeared isolated at the UN Human Rights Council, where even its closest ally the United States said it expected a credible, transparent investigation into Monday's attack in which nine activists died.


Protesters take part in an anti-Israel demonstration at Taksim square in Istanbul, Turkey on Monday May 31, 2010. About 10,000 people gathered in the Turkish capital.

The 47-member forum held a special three-hour debate at the request of Arab and Islamic states. It was expected to vote on Wednesday on their joint resolution condemning the attack and calling for an independent inquiry.

"The attack on the Israeli soldiers was beyond all doubt premeditated. The weapons used had been prepared in advance," Israeli Ambassador Aharon Leshno Yaar told the Geneva meeting.

"They were not on a humanitarian mission but one of provocation and incitement. They used knives and clubs and shot two Israeli soldiers. Israeli forces had no choice but to defend themselves," he said.

Yaar said the Turkish-based Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (IHH), an Islamic charity that organized the convoy, "has publicly professed connections to Egypt's Islamic Brotherhood and the Hamas, and has been a central actor of fund raising and financing terror for Hamas around the world".

A 2006 report by the Danish Institute for International Studies written by counter-terrorism expert Evan Kohlmann described the IHH as a front for funding terrorist organizations and sending fighters to countries such as Afghanistan, Bosnia and Chechnya. The IHH denied the accusations at the time.

Yaar added that Israel was justified under international law in acting against the flotilla.

He accused Gaza's ruling Hamas of "smuggling arms and military supplies into Gaza by land and sea, in order to fortify its positions and continue its attacks (on Israel)".

He asserted that international law permitted capturing a vessel attempting to breach a naval blockade, even in international waters, as was the case on Monday.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Israel has a blockade of Gaza, which means no ships in no ships out..., basically.

Israel said that if these guys wanted to deliver crap to Gaza they were free to offload at an Israeli port and the IDF would transport it for them.

Israel had a total blockade around Gaza, meaning they control exit and entry. That is why it is so crucial if Egypt decides to unilaterally cease blockading Gaza from their border in the Sinai. That would create a totally different strategic situation in the south of Israel and basically a new Middle East dynamic as the ties between Egypt and Israel risk unravelling. However they both need each other, so Mubarak would have to be under some HUUUGE pressure to do that.

there was an election in Egypt in the last 24 hours, a local one. Muslim Brotherhood were "rounded up" and the Rafah crossing opened.
 

fairy1

Banned
I joined the I love Allah group on Faceschmuck and they had the vid post and many people had it ticked as a liked vid, I'm not in the I love Allah group anymore it scared me a bit, seemed like a good idea at the time.
 

Drizz

Likes Dirt
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-activists-autopsy-results

Wow this just got a bit hardcore. Looks like Israel just handed a PR field day to its coalition of enemies. Wonder how they dig themselves out of this!

Israel was tonight under pressure to allow an independent inquiry into its assault on the Gaza aid flotilla after autopsy results on the bodies of those killed, obtained by the Guardian, revealed they were peppered with 9mm bullets, many fired at close range.

Nine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head, according to the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice today.

The results revealed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back. Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, said Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the council of forensic medicine.

The findings emerged as more survivors gave their accounts of the raids. Ismail Patel, the chairman of Leicester-based pro-Palestinian group Friends of al-Aqsa, who returned to Britain today, told how he witnessed some of the fatal shootings and claimed that Israel had operated a "shoot to kill policy".

He calculated that during the bloodiest part of the assault, Israeli commandos shot one person every minute. One man was fatally shot in the back of the head just two feet in front him and another was shot once between the eyes. He added that as well as the fatally wounded, 48 others were suffering from gunshot wounds and six activists remained missing, suggesting the death toll may increase.

The new information about the manner and intensity of the killings undermines Israel's insistence that its soldiers opened fire only in self defence and in response to attacks by the activists.

"Given the very disturbing evidence which contradicts the line from the Israeli media and suggests that Israelis have been very selective in the way they have addressed this, there is now an overwhelming need for an international inquiry," said Andrew Slaughter MP, a member of the all party group on Britain and Palestine.

Israel said tonight the number of bullets found in the bodies did not alter the fact that the soldiers were acting in self defence. "The only situation when a soldier shot was when it was a clearly a life-threatening situation," said a spokesman for the Israeli embassy in London. "Pulling the trigger quickly can result in a few bullets being in the same body, but does not change the fact they were in a life-threatening situation."

Protesters from across the country will tomorrow march from Downing Street to the Israeli embassy to call for Israel to be held to account for its actions.

Earlier this week, William Hague, the foreign secretary, said the government would call for an inquiry under international auspices if Israel refuses to establish an independent inquiry, including an international presence.

The autopsy results were released as the last of the Turkish victims was buried.

Dr Haluk Ince, the chairman of the council of forensic medicine in Istanbul, said that in only one case was there a single bullet wound, to the forehead from a distant shot, while every other victim suffered multiple wounds. "All [the bullets] were intact. This is important in a forensic context. When a bullet strikes another place it comes into the body deformed. If it directly comes into the body, the bullet is all intact."

He added that all but one of the bullets retrieved from the bodies came from 9mm rounds. Of the other round, he said: "It was the first time we have seen this kind of material used in firearms. It was just a container including many types of pellets usually used in shotguns. It penetrated the head region in the temple and we found it intact in the brain."

An unnamed Israeli commando, who purportedly led the raid on the Mavi Marmara, today told Israeli news website Ynet News that he shot at a protester who approached him with a knife. "I was in front of a number of people with knives and clubs," he said. "I cocked my weapon when I saw that one was coming towards me with a knife drawn and I fired once. Then another 20 people came at me from all directions and threw me down to the deck below …

"We knew they were peace activists. Though they wanted to break the Gaza blockade, we thought we'd encounter passive resistance, perhaps verbal resistance – we didn't expect this. Everyone wanted to kill us. We encountered terrorists who wanted to kill us and we did everything we could to prevent unnecessary injury."

Tonight the Rachel Corrie, an Irish vessel crewed by supporters of the Free Gaza movement, remained on course for Gaza. Yossi Gal, director general at the Israeli foreign ministry, said Israel had "no desire for a confrontation" but asked for the ship to dock at Ashdod, not Gaza.

"If the ship decides to sail the port of Ashdod, then we will ensure its safe arrival and will not board it," he said.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
I'm not sure how that changes anything, TBH.

In life threatening situations you would expect the rounds to be fired in close proximity and that fits with the soldiers being attacked with sharp/blunt instruments. When you're under attack you put a few rounds in the target out of panic and the desire to make sure the enemy is killed as quick as possible. Aussie soldiers are taught to always double tap unless it was a slow, deliberately aimed shot.

The calibre of these rounds would matter more if they were 50cal or 7.62mm. That would imply shots made at a distance (thus implying less threat to life from sharp/blunts) and/or that there was less care taken in regards to safety as these rounds can pass through the intended target to other unintended victims. 9mm less so and is used in smaller weapons such as the pistol or MP5 in closer quarters.

And this bit:
The new information about the manner and intensity of the killings undermines Israel's insistence that its soldiers opened fire only in self defence and in response to attacks by the activists.
leaves me completely confused. I can't work out the train of logic that's being used.


I have also now seen the footage of these guys originally going in with paintball guns. The fact that they originally used non-lethal force is a pretty strong indicator that they had the intention of pacifying rather than killing the passengers on the Mavi Marmara. I still don't get why they boarded instead of using available systems to disable vessels without boarding, though. I don't know if it was arrogance by the planners or if they actually wanted this outcome. Either way there is very little positive come out of this for Israel that I can see.
 

brisneyland

Likes Dirt
What johnny said. The logic in that article makes no sense.


There was an article in the Australian today about it, they did indeed go in with paintball guns and sidearms and were surprised by the ferocity of the so called protestors. The Israelis were indeed threatened by these idiots and drew their sidearms to defend themselves.

And I am far from an Israel apologist.
 

Drizz

Likes Dirt
I'm not sure how that changes anything, TBH.
I am particularly interested in the bit where they were shot in the back/back of their heads. It could be a situation where one commando defending another but someone can also spin this as "execution" rather than "self defence". I agree how the 5 Turks die is not a new revelation but it will infuriates the Turkey populace further.

In defence of Israel: The family of those that did die were saying they went with the convoy to seek "Martyrdom", hardly seens to be the attitude of a passive peace activitist.
 

delbified

Likes Bikes
the raid is no different to 100s of past incidents between the israeli military and palestinians and their supporters. palestinians provoke israel with a level of aggression, israel reacts with 10 x brutality. you can argue who should stop it until you go blue in the face. there's no moral high ground here.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
It's not a moral issue.

Politics and security are about interests and power morals and justice is philosophical and an irrelevant concept when it comes to this game.
 

Bermshot

Banned
Yep, that is unfortunately what is going on here, no morality. Like johnny said earlier, if you focus on such human emotions such as morality or who is to blame you will miss the point by a long shot. There has been no 'Reason' used in this situation for a very long time. You must look deeper for your answers.
 

Kingswood

Likes Dirt
I have also now seen the footage of these guys originally going in with paintball guns. The fact that they originally used non-lethal force is a pretty strong indicator that they had the intention of pacifying rather than killing the passengers on the Mavi Marmara.
Pacifying???? dont paint ball guns hurt like f*ck?

Vallium will pacify, shooting someone with a paint ball after storming their boat is seriously poking the bear.
 

smeck

Likes Dirt
the raid is no different to 100s of past incidents between the israeli military and palestinians and their supporters. palestinians provoke israel with a level of aggression, israel reacts with 10 x brutality. you can argue who should stop it until you go blue in the face. there's no moral high ground here.
I can't say I really agree with Israel responding with 10x brutality. It's a hard word to quantify, but consider the Palestinians openly target civilians while Israel only incur civilian casualties while targetting combatants. Considering the blockade incidents of late it's a long draw of the bow to claim the Arabs aren't attempting to be brutal, the intent is there. What Israel do is 10x more effective and 10x better publicised, but I'm going to take some convincing they're anymore brutal and any less carefree about taking lives than the people they're fighting with.

Can you get more brutal than attacking a bloke that you've never met, who's armed with a paintball gun, with an iron bar? Yes he's an Israeli soldier and 'the pawn of the oppressor' but the 'peace activists' on the ship were hardly enemy combatants acting under rules of engagement, they were religious zealots bent on matyrdom.

edit:
Pacifying???? dont paint ball guns hurt like f*ck? Vallium will pacify, shooting someone with a paint ball after storming their boat is seriously poking the bear.
The footage I saw they were clubbing the soldiers before they even hit the deck, it seems the bear was well incensed before the soldiers even arrived. The convoy was running the blockade, they absolutely knew they would be boarded. It's not like the soldiers went in swinging, they were ambushed by a bunch of people frothing at the mouth for a fight.
 
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Kingswood

Likes Dirt
The convoy was running the blockade, they absolutely knew they would be boarded. It's not like the soldiers went in swinging, they were ambushed by a bunch of people frothing at the mouth for a fight.
My point is, that I think the soldiers did go in swinging, they where armed, coming down from choppers, Pacify was completing the wrong word to describe it. If I have some physco ninja neighbour coming through my window with a paint ball gun (and I assume other more deadly weapons strapped to them), then I wouldn't feel sleepy and calm, I would probably feel like I am being attacked, and can therefore go right ahead and justify defending myself.

Isreal was totally provoked, any numb nut could see that, and they fell for it, their completely predictable heavy handed-ness was banked upon.

Both sides are in the wrong, and they both justify killing people so easily it's sickening.
 

smeck

Likes Dirt
.................. If I have some physco ninja neighbour coming through my window with a paint ball gun (and I assume other more deadly weapons strapped to them), then I wouldn't feel sleepy and calm, I would probably feel like I am being attacked, and can therefore go right ahead and justify defending myself.......................
These people weren't attacked in their home so let's adjust your analogy. You go on a planned 'peaceful' protest march and have publicised you're going into a restricted area that your council permit explicitly states you cannot enter. You know the Police are on standby and will react, they contact you and warn you several times as you approach. You head for the restricted area regardless and when the Police arrive you pull out the iron bar 'you prepared earlier' and proceed to club them as they exit their van. You disarm them of their battens and riot shields, beat them with said weapons, then cry indignation when the reach for their remaining options of capsicum spray, tasers, or revolvers.

Commachero's don't go to Hell's Angels pub for a quiet drink. It's like dressing in Orange and marching 'the traditional route' through a Catholic suburb in Belfast, it's provocative and you cannot play the doe eyed Bambi routine if rubbish bins start exploding.
 

Kingswood

Likes Dirt
These people weren't attacked in their home so let's adjust your analogy. You go on a planned 'peaceful' protest march and have publicised you're going into a restricted area that your council permit explicitly states you cannot enter. You know the Police are on standby and will react, they contact you and warn you several times as you approach. You head for the restricted area regardless and when the Police arrive you pull out the iron bar 'you prepared earlier' and proceed to club them as they exit their van. You disarm them of their battens and riot shields, beat them with said weapons, then cry indignation when the reach for their remaining options of capsicum spray, tasers, or revolvers.

Commachero's don't go to Hell's Angels pub for a quiet drink. It's like dressing in Orange and marching 'the traditional route' through a Catholic suburb in Belfast, it's provocative and you cannot play the doe eyed Bambi routine if rubbish bins start exploding.
Your analogy implies Isreal is the 'Police', or 'The Council', something that should have it's authority respected yeah?
Both sides are far beyond any kind of respect, the people on the boat that where provoking the fight dont see the soldiers as the police, they see them as the complete enemy. Why???????

Your analogy does have it's truths though, and Isreal played their part as scripted.
They didn't "have" to react the way they did, they could have changed tact, they could have made some descisions so that no-one got hurt and the bar toting crazy people where left bobbing in the ocean with their dicks in their hands looking like idiots. They could have been much smarter, and avoided the situation. But instead, they took the bait.

and both sides are crying indignation aren't they?
 
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johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Why the IDF didn't entangle the props I'll probably never know.

There's a lot of people in the SF, police, anti-piracy security game sitting around scratching their heads at the decisions the IDF made that day. It's even possible that the leaders of Israel knew that this would happen and thought they could stage a media coup. Doubt they are that dumb though.
 

smeck

Likes Dirt
The only reasonable assumption I can come up with is they wanted the theatrics of a boarding and just didn't anticipate the level of response. You can bet the prop nets are going to be used a bit more regularly now though, especially if the Iranian Red Crescent send the two 'aid ships' they're planning, and if the escorts go as suggested the fireworks could be visible from here.
 

a.davis12

Likes Bikes and Dirt
i am over people, really, i can't stand them.
all i really care about is the animals at qalqilya.
http://gulfnews.com/news/region/pal...li-troops-shot-and-killed-zoo-animals-1.46837

that makes me really really really really really angry.
I was brought up in a "jewish" household and went to a jewish primary school from creche through to grade six. call me an anti semite or whatever but the problems i see with israel is the pillar of the jewish religion, that being the belief one is "a chosen person". Most of the people i went to primary school with are so involved with themselves they can't see any other side of a story. If i showed the above, many would likely proclaim that the animals attacked them or something of the sort.

personally i don't care about the legality of attacking the aid ship. technically speaking there is no legal reason why it could not have occurred, but i have an issue with why the ships were sent in the first place. i don't agree with a state being based on religion, all it achieves the fostering of hate against an entire religous group because of the actions of political body. i also don't agree with a blockade being imposed on an entire group of people for whatever reason, yes rockets are fired into israel, yes that is bad, yes it should be stopped. is it then necissary to starve children? will this stop rockets? or will it simply further inflame tensions, fostering hate and further radicalism?


that said i fucking hate socialist alternative.
 
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