Israel ship attack [PAWN content]

dcrofty

Eats Squid
So seems Israel may have gone overboard again. Lots of media coming out that they have fired on a humanitarian convoy in international waters killing multiple people.

Will the US condemn the attack?
Will any negative comments attract calls of anti Semitism from some quarters?
Were the activists being deliberately provocative?
Is this shitfight ever going to end?

Thoughts?
 

daever

lunatic rant extraordinaire
Avital Leibovich, an Israeli military spokeswoman, confirmed that the attack took place in international waters, saying: "This happened in waters outside of Israeli territory, but we have the right to defend ourselves."

Attacking in international waters is very brazen.
And i thought the Gaza strip was Palestinian? Wouldn't that make the waters around it Palestinian too?

But anyway, no sugar coating, Israel fucked up. They have most of Palestine anyway, they should be happy with that and stop the shenanigans.
 
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johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
This is turkey fucking with Israel.

Turkey is moving to become the new Middle Eastern pole and they are doing that by attacking Israel. Look at Erdogan's lashing out at Peres over Cast Shield for the real start of it all.

There were provocateurs on the vessels, soon you will see footage of soldiers fast roping down on to the boats and being immediately set upon with iron bars. The shooting didn't start until they were given no choice but to defend themselves. Israel was placed in a position where they either had to give up their control over Gaza and capitulate to Turkey or invite global condemnation and retain their hold on the area.

The US is being fucked with by Turkey as well. The US needs Turkey in the region to balance against Iran and to take over Iraq when the US pulls out instead of handing it to Iran. The US doesn't need Israel so much these days. That relationship is a Cold War relic and is quickly moving out of vogue. The US wants ISrael to STFU and stop developing in East Jerusalem/West Bank and stop giving the militants that reason to recruit and fight. Israel wants to retain its autonomy and not be told what to do by anyone and the left and right don't want to fall victim to the religious zealots either. So the US is already off Israel right now (remember that the last Netanyahu/Obama meeting was not a friendly one) but Bibi is headed to Wash. tomorrow and that will be a very telling meeting as to how the US is going to move forward in the region.

There is nothing to say that the US won't eventually dump Israel for Turkey (and even Iran). All the US needs is one power to compete with the other regional powers in order to keep their focus in the region rather than looking to spread influence abroad in a way that may fuck with US interests.

The only people that have an interest in seeing the Palestinian issue settled is the Palestinians and Iran. The Egyptians don't want to see Gaza as a state, the Jordanians and Syrians don't want to see the WB as a state. Israel is a country that is stuck in the coastal low lands and without the central massif (WB) has no strategic depth and is terribly vulnerable to attack. Iran only wants a Palestinian state so they can then use them as a tool and launching pad against Israel. Tehran only wants Israel to be castrated so Iran is then the regional power.

No one gives a shit about the peace process. The US is only pressuring Israel on the issue because they need Islamic support for their goals of settling Iraq and Afghanistan so they can pull out without handing either to Iran or Pakistan. Israel is quickly becoming a whipping boy for other people's agenda.

Don't hold your breath for a peace deal any time soon, no one even wants one. Do keep your eye out for the Turks becoming a power, though. Was only 3-4 generations ago that they were an empire....
 
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floody

Wheel size expert
Israel looks like a particularly aggressive, well armed, devious whipping boy though of late?
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Israel looks like a particularly aggressive, well armed, devious country since 1967
That, I agree with. Only difference now is that its great power patron support is looking shaky.

Israel knows it risks being thrown under the bus by the US. There is debate in Israel (as in right now) as to whether Israel should give a fuck, do what it must and go isolationist or whether it must back off and be more flexible on the Palestinian issue as Israel cannot survive without support.

Israel's foreign policy (which starts at the Palestinian territories) is held captive by domestic politics. The country is made up of so many previous cultures, sects and ethnicities (Semitic, Russian, Hungarian, American, Ethiopian, German, Haredi, Ashkenazi, Shephardi, Zionist, moderate all the way down to secular nationalists) that the country's domestic politics is largely factionalised. That is why all governments are coalitions patched together to create a ruling bloc.

That results in parties like Shas, who are rather extreme in some views (Just listen to anything Leiberman says about anything) and the main party, such as Likud are then beholden to some extreme policies lest the smaller fringe parties leave the coalition.

Israel is relatively unique in that respect that you have to factor in the particular positions of its policy makers to understand the constraints on government action and the sometimes arrogant policies. For example the determination to keep constructing in East Jerusalem. The local mayor founded a party called something like "We Will Prevail Party". He's the one that can ignore government orders to stop construction and organise thousands to march on the street protesting the legislation if he wants.

All pretty fucking complicated and that's just Israel. The surrounding countries are no different.
 
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trickle

Likes Dirt
This is turkey fucking with Israel.

Turkey is moving to become the new Middle Eastern pole and they are doing that by attacking Israel. Look at Erdogan's lashing out at Peres over Cast Shield for the real start of it all.

There were provocateurs on the vessels, soon you will see footage of soldiers fast roping down on to the boats and being immediately set upon with iron bars. The shooting didn't start until they were given no choice but to defend themselves. Israel was placed in a position where they either had to give up their control over Gaza and capitulate to Turkey or invite global condemnation and retain their hold on the area.

The US is being fucked with by Turkey as well. The US needs Turkey in the region to balance against Iran and to take over Iraq when the US pulls out instead of handing it to Iran. The US doesn't need Israel so much these days. That relationship is a Cold War relic and is quickly moving out of vogue. The US wants ISrael to STFU and stop developing in East Jerusalem/West Bank and stop giving the militants that reason to recruit and fight. Israel wants to retain its autonomy and not be told what to do by anyone and the left and right don't want to fall victim to the religious zealots either. So the US is already off Israel right now (remember that the last Netanyahu/Obama meeting was not a friendly one) but Bibi is headed to Wash. tomorrow and that will be a very telling meeting as to how the US is going to move forward in the region.

There is nothing to say that the US won't eventually dump Israel for Turkey (and even Iran). All the US needs is one power to compete with the other regional powers in order to keep their focus in the region rather than looking to spread influence abroad in a way that may fuck with US interests.

The only people that have an interest in seeing the Palestinian issue settled is the Palestinians and Iran. The Egyptians don't want to see Gaza as a state, the Jordanians and Syrians don't want to see the WB as a state. Israel is a country that is stuck in the coastal low lands and without the central massif (WB) has no strategic depth and is terribly vulnerable to attack. Iran only wants a Palestinian state so they can then use them as a tool and launching pad against Israel. Tehran only wants Israel to be castrated so Iran is then the regional power.

No one gives a shit about the peace process. The US is only pressuring Israel on the issue because they need Islamic support for their goals of settling Iraq and Afghanistan so they can pull out without handing either to Iran or Pakistan. Israel is quickly becoming a whipping boy for other people's agenda.

Don't hold your breath for a peace deal any time soon, no one even wants one. Do keep your eye out for the Turks becoming a power, though. Was only 3-4 generations ago that they were an empire....
Well said that man!

The Peaceful folks on the humanitarian aid vessels sure were putting up a Peaceful fight!!
Like my old man says, never bring a slingshot to a IDF fight


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f13_1275322042

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f4e_1275318710

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d3b_1275323514
 

Ryan

Radministrator
Well said that man!

The Peaceful folks on the humanitarian aid vessels sure were putting up a Peaceful fight!!
Like my old man says, never bring a slingshot to a IDF fight


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f13_1275322042

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f4e_1275318710

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d3b_1275323514
If you illegally board a vessel in international waters you are a pirate. The people on board a vessel under attack by pirates have a right to defend themselves, do they not? If Israel didn't want their troops getting attacked they probably should have stayed out of the piracy business.

There's no other way to spin this. You sent your troops to commit an act of piracy in international waters that was repelled. Some of your pirates got killed and so you decided to shoot the people defending their vessel.

Israel is obviously the victim here and I'm a huge anti-semite, before someone throws that out there. :rolleyes:
 
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Moggio

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Ignoring all whether you support Israel or not here they made a big miscalculation here. They were being provoked obviously but they took the bait and made a real huge mess of it.

This mention of "deadly violence" seems to relate to the fact that some of the Israeli commandos had their guns taken away from them, before that the flotilla was fighting with bars and chairs and maybe a few small pocket knifes. Facing the Israeli defence force with a few things they managed to grab to repel an attack, and we all know how subtle the Israeli's are with their attacks is really quite justifiable and realistic.

So Israel seems to at least have a few clauses of international law to justify their boarding in international waters however it is yet another massive failure by them in public relations. Even if you were a supporter of Israel, their last few years have been disatrous for international relations and keeping up appearances.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Do you think that the people on the boats were defending themselves against piracy or baiting the Israelis in to over-reacting and killing people?

Do you think that the people who set off on the boats were looking to bring goods in to Gaza or put Israel in a position where they had to act in a way that resulted in capitulation or aggression?


I'm not taking any position on the morals or rights/wrongs in the whole situation. I'm looking at the strategies and tactics being used by either side.
 

Kingswood

Likes Dirt
There were provocateurs on the vessels, soon you will see footage of soldiers fast roping down on to the boats and being immediately set upon with iron bars. The shooting didn't start until they were given no choice but to defend themselves.
So who was defending themselves first?

Did the soldiers come down from the choppers with peace flags, totally un-armed, and then get attacked for no reason?
 

jumpers

Likes Dirt
Whole episode just is a reminder of how fkd up the situation is over there - i dont think there will ever be a solution - who is right or wrong depends on how / whose side you view it from.

Seems to me that Israel is up the creek no matter what way they go. Did Israel board the boat because it feared it was carrying "terrorists/ fanatics" - if thats what they thought and they were attacked upon boarding then the use of force may be justified.
Did Israel just board the boat to suss it out in international waters? - then the boaties may be justified in defending themselves.

Just seems to be no answers to situation.

I always wonder if there is people in the mid east who just see all this and wonder wtf (similar to us). Jeez it would be hard to live over there - i just get round in my dh armour all the time
 

Ryan

Radministrator
Do you think that the people on the boats were defending themselves against piracy or baiting the Israelis in to over-reacting and killing people?

Do you think that the people who set off on the boats were looking to bring goods in to Gaza or put Israel in a position where they had to act in a way that resulted in capitulation or aggression?
Does the fact that they baited them into it make Israel's response more justified? They illegally boarded a vessel in international waters and killed people. Depending on whose version of events you choose to believe the whole naval blockade of Gaza is illegal in the first place, does the fact that they were running an illegal blockade make the protesters actions more justified?

"They started it!" isn't really a well-reasoned response although you can bet it's the only line that either side will spout in the coming weeks.
 

Moggio

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Do you think that the people on the boats were defending themselves against piracy or baiting the Israelis in to over-reacting and killing people?

Do you think that the people who set off on the boats were looking to bring goods in to Gaza or put Israel in a position where they had to act in a way that resulted in capitulation or aggression?


I'm not taking any position on the morals or rights/wrongs in the whole situation. I'm looking at the strategies and tactics being used by either side.
Seeing there were 700 people on that boat there was sure to be some that would react that way. I wouldn't say it was planned, I'd say an altercation was inevitable. The Israeli's seem to have miscalculated on that. I think they thought an extreme show of force would be enough to subdue the people on the ships and they they would be easily able to tow them to port. They should have known better as they have enough experience in dealing with unarmed people and seeing the reaction.

I think with that number of ships, people and backers to fund something like this there is no one plan. Lots of different people would have had different views on what the "real" plan of the flotilla was. A lot would have been exclusively thinking of humanitarian aid while some would have been thinking this will create a difficult situation for Israel.

I don't think either side went out looking for a fight like this... the protesters unarmed and the Israeli's doing a really terrible mess of a job and I don't think originally intending to hurt anyone. I suspect both expected a diplomatic mess that would go on for a few weeks, both trying to make the most out of it. The protestors a political statement and Israel just showing their control of the situation and that they are in charge.

That all said, have to see what the investigations, reporters, footage etc all shows.. maybe one side was really stupid and make this happen.
 
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PINT of Stella. mate!

Many, many Scotches
http://www.theage.com.au/world/gaza...ralian-injured-20100531-wrae.html?autostart=1

So we have an Australian injured in all this, or perhaps it was a member of the IDF with an Australian passport... ;)

Seriously though at first I just put this down to 'the same old shit', outside interests deliberately provoking Israel and Israel responding with out any care for international law but after reading Johnny's posts I'm a bit more intrigued by Turkey's involvement. Is this recent shift towards becoming a more prominent player in the middle east a backlash against the EU's refusal to allow Turkey membership? The recent economic crisis in Greece can't hardly have helped Turkey's case with the more prominent EU members potentially adopting a once-bitten twice-shy approach to fringe membership.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Does the fact that they baited them into it make Israel's response more justified? They illegally boarded a vessel in international waters and killed people. Depending on whose version of events you choose to believe the whole naval blockade of Gaza is illegal in the first place, does the fact that they were running an illegal blockade make the protesters actions more justified?

"They started it!" isn't really a well-reasoned response although you can bet it's the only line that either side will spout in the coming weeks.
Once again I'm not talking about justification and right and wrong here, I've realised that these values don't exist in this issue.

You have to realise what is going on here is not based on people just trying to do the right thing, look out for the down trodden or stand up for what is right. Everything you are seeing is of a strategic nature. Why do you think Erdogan came out of the blue and spat the dummy at Peres in Davos? Do you think he really gives a shit for the Gazans? Reality in the Arab world is that everyone fucking hates the Palestinians and won't touch them with a 10 foot pole. For evidence of that, take a look at how much money the other Arab states give to the Palestinians each year.

The flotilla was a very strategic move and left the Israelis no choice but to act.

First, AKP is pushing forward very aggressively to balance against an emerging Iran and the best way to do that is to vilify Israel. That gets the Arab street on board and as an extension the Arab states. To add to that nobody wants Iran to become the regional number one and Turkey is certainly a favourable alternative. So if they can stand up to the regional power - Israel - without getting sanction from the US then Turkey all of a sudden becomes VERY fucking formidable and a wonderful counter weight to Iran.

Second and the logical flow on from the first point; Israel is in the shit with the US. Washington asked ISrael to move forward on the Middle East peace plan in order to pacify the Muslim world for the time being. Obama desperately wants to GTFO of Iraq and Afghanistan and to do that he needs as much support from the other Arab/Islamic/M.E states as possible (Thinking KSA, Egypt, Turkey, etc.) and by removing the lightening rod - used by AQ - of Israeli expansion and Arab dispossession that job for the US becomes a little easier. However as I have explained above, getting a unified response from the Israeli state, especially one that goes against some of the more insular and extreme minorities that make up the coalitions is very hard to do. There is now a split in Israeli politics between those that only care about what goes on in the Holy Land and think that they can go isolationist and those that disagree with that position and know that they need to cooperate with outside powers or be crushed over time.

The split in Israel has created a split with the US. I mean when the fucking VP, Biden was there a few months ago they announced more building in East Jerusalem. Not only did they go against US request but they announced that they would 2 hours before Biden was supposed to have dinner with Netanyahu. Then look at the following meeting with Obama and Net, no photos, no wonderful statements of brotherhood, etc. Then when Ehud Barak was in Washington not later, the US President just happens to "drop by" on him and say hi. Barak then goes home to Israel spouting how important the US relationship is. That shows you where the split is in Israel. Likud needs the smaller parties like Shas and they are the militant groups that will not give in to US demands. Labor on the other hand are the pragmatists and are willing to be more flexible with domestic policy to satisfy foreign policy.

Lastly; the "enemies of Israel" are not blind to this at all. They see the split and are looking to wedge the fuck out of it. So they push this flotilla in and force Israel to act. keep in mind that the Palestinians are a risk to Israel's national security. Now forget all the superficial shit of "we were here first, this is our holy land, you force us in to violence and martyrism" because that is all surface noise that masks the reality of the situation. Similar to the battles in Chechnya/Norther Caucuses, Aceh, FARC and other nationalist insurgencies, the people at the head of the militant groups mostly aren't fighting for a belief they are fighting to become kings. As I said before, ISrael is trapped on a coastal plain, they are the hardest pieces of land to defend, save a land locked plain like Poland. So the Israelis want the hilly areas and all the borders to control the buffer lands. Mountains are your strategic depth, they are hard to attack and easy to defend. When your coast gets hit you pull back to the hills and harass the invaders until the benefit of staying becomes too much. Israel has zero strategic depth right now and their heart land is on the fucking coast. Horrible place to be when living on the Mediterranean (look how many expansionary powers there have been in the region over history that have wanted to control the Levant and the coast; Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Roman, Ottoman, British, French, etc.). Forget the whole biblical and spiritual shit that we hear from both sides as that is just noise from the extreme groups that are used by the powers for strategic goals. The reason why Israel fights is a matter of survival (and that means they don't give a shit about the poor palestinians, so try and see past the "justification argument because when you are fighting for strategic survival everything is justified and international law is the first redundancy you notice).

Also remember that the vast majority of Israeli top politicians are IDF and Mossad. They understand strategic survival and their education and experiences are fully based on that perspective. They are not the Zionists and spiritualists.

The Palestinians see the split in Israel and the split with the US (split forces = weakness) and they thought up a beautiful tactic to wedge it some more. AKP, who are on a big strategic push in the region are using the Palestinians for strategic gain and the Palestinians are using the Turks for tactical support.

They send these boats across and Israel either has to relinquish some control over an area that is imperative to strategic survival or they have to act in a way that will increase the split in Israel and invite sanction from the US. Notice how within hours of getting hit Turkey had already called for action in the UN? That is because this way the US won't be allowed to sit on the fence, they will have to do something. Go back and look how many times in the past that the US has supported action in the UN against Israel. Now, the US will be forced to choose between their traditional ally or the new rising power. Keep in mind that the US needs Turkey to move in to Iraq when they pull out in order to balance against Iran and that Turkey is also a potential balance against Russia in the Caucuses and Central Asia.

This was a very nice strategic move on the behalf of Turkey and the Palestinians. It increases political stasis and disunity in Israel and also potentially pushes the US away from Israel. Move back from what happened on the ground on the boats, that is not the game here and if you get bogged down in that shit and base your understanding on justification and law you will not be able to see what is actually going down.

Nobody, especially in this part of the world, gives a fuck for international law and what is right. It is all about survival through power.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
I don't know why I said poland was land locked. I've even been to Gdansk and sat on the beach myself......
 

Ryan

Radministrator
I understand that the whole point was to put Israel in a position where they had to respond or relinquish control but am still apalled at the incredible clusterfuck they managed to make of the response. They've put themselves on the worst grounds they possibly could have to defend themselves at the UN and seem to have done it deliberately.

Why not, at the very least let the ships through the blockade and then stop them inside the area that Israel controls? Doing it all in international waters just seems either deliberately provocative or wantonly stupid. But maybe I don't see the end game ;)
 

maxwolfie

under-the-radar comedian
This thread is far beyond my intellectual level.

I'll start (and end) by asking - What is PAWN?
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Ryan:

Yeah, on that point I have NFI. I've been chatting to folks in other places and some of this seems like a good old fuck up. There are a number of tactics that could have been used that weren't, the guys that went in were using strange kit and WTF was Bibi doing in bloody Canada??!

This was always going to end badly to some extent, that he was sitting on the other side of the world in a country that is not at all pivotal whilst a major crisis is being played out is seriously fucking weird. I hesitate to say it was a fuck up though, these people are smart, that's why they run countries. I'm assuming that there are parts of this that I do not know/understand.
 
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