Lower back

[Trickymac]

the myth of core stability

http://www.craigliebenson.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/sdarticle.pdf

Conclusion
Weak trunk muscles, weak abdominals and imbalances between trunk muscles groups are not a pathology just a normal variation.
The division of the trunk into core and global muscle system is a reductionist fantasy, which serves only to promote CS.
Weak or dysfunctional abdominal muscles will not lead to back pain.
Tensing the trunk muscles is unlikely to provide any protection against back pain or reduce the recurrence of back pain.
Core stability exercises are no more effective than, and will not prevent injury more than, any other forms of exercise or physical therapy.
Core stability exercises are no better than other forms of exercise in reducing chronic lower back pain. Any therapeutic influence is related to the exercise effects rather than stability issues.
There may be potential danger of damaging the spine with continuous tensing of the trunk muscles during daily and sports activities.
Patients who have been trained to use complex abdominal hollowing and bracing manoeuvres should be discouraged from using them.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

snip

Great post, went to a conference a few years ago that Lederman presented at, he certainly understands a bit more about how the trunk muscles work over the average 'core' enthusiasts.

Here's another one on the performance side of things... isn't exactly an encouraging outcome (the conclusion is quite scathing for a neutral tone science paper).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22784233

And another in LBP, which highlights the piss poor quality of studies...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3524111/

 

[Trickymac]

Great post, went to a conference a few years ago that Lederman presented at, he certainly understands a bit more about how the trunk muscles work over the average 'core' enthusiasts.

Here's another one on the performance side of things... isn't exactly an encouraging outcome (the conclusion is quite scathing for a neutral tone science paper).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22784233

And another in LBP, which highlights the piss poor quality of studies...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3524111/

some nice articles

 

[Trickymac]

but back to the orginal purpose of the thread, if you are suffering lower back pain and want an educated solution to the problem consult a health professional, if you need a referral to someone excellent with lower backs and with cycling experience pm me and ill put you in contact
matt

 

[schwing]

but back to the orginal purpose of the thread, if you are suffering lower back pain and want an educated solution to the problem consult a health professional,

I had a sore back - lower back in fact - turns out it was hip disfunction. Tight glutes, and hip flexors primarily

 

[lindz1817]

I had a sore back - lower back in fact - turns out it was hip disfunction. Tight glutes, and hip flexors primarily

Tight hip flexors are very common for cyclists because of the high proportion of hip flexion while riding.

 

[teK--]

Sore lower back often due to poor hip mobility causing you to round your back.

Try freeweight exercises such as deadlifts, single leg deadlifts, kettlebell swing. Also bodyweight exercises such as squats and bridges.

 

[Trickymac]

Sore lower back often due to poor hip mobility causing you to round your back.

Try freeweight exercises such as deadlifts, single leg deadlifts, kettlebell swing. Also bodyweight exercises such as squats and bridges.

as a health professional specialising in lower backs, this advice above is poor and potentially dangerous and so general its not funny, the amount of ppl that just say do deadlifts/squats and kettle bells is insane...pls show me some evidence that doing deadlifts is beneficial for a potentially damaged or sore lower back...and pls dont attempt to sprout the old chestnut that strengthening something will make it pain free
see a health professional

 

[my02]

as a health professional specialising in lower backs, this advice above is poor and potentially dangerous and so general its not funny, the amount of ppl that just say do deadlifts/squats and kettle bells is insane...pls show me some evidence that doing deadlifts is beneficial for a potentially damaged or sore lower back...and pls dont attempt to sprout the old chestnut that strengthening something will make it pain free
see a health professional

+1

One of the things i've learned from chronic back pain is that 100 people could present the same LBP and there could be 100 different causes.

It is far too important to everyday function (let alone riding a bike) to leave to chance on an internet forum.

Get a professional opinion. Get another if it doesn't seem to be working. Over the course of 6 years of back pain varying from irritating to immobilised for days, I have only now started to get my back into a semi good condition (its now "weak" but almost pain free). Ive seen a variety of specialists - GPs, many physios (lots.........really, lots), chiros (although I'm now 99.99% against them as one caused my pain in the first place), osteopath (only person who could stop the pain but couldn't diagnose), myo fascial release specialists and someone who I think was a real witch doctor (i was in Swaziland and very desperate).

I feel I have missed out on a lot over the past few years due to problems relating to my LBP.

Just stump up and see a professional.

 

[pharmaboy]

but back to the orginal purpose of the thread, if you are suffering lower back pain and want an educated solution to the problem consult a health professional, if you need a referral to someone excellent with lower backs and with cycling experience pm me and ill put you in contact
matt

The obvious question is "who is the health care professional " to consult ?

Pain- neurologist ?
Functional - physio / gp with special interest ?
Surgical - orthopedics ?
Vertebroplasty - radiologist?

 

[Mywifesirrational]

The obvious question is "who is the health care professional " to consult ?

Pain- neurologist ?
Functional - physio / gp with special interest ?
Surgical - orthopedics ?
Vertebroplasty - radiologist?

As a health professional, who has previously worked in outpatient pain clinic with 98% of patients having serious LBP.... I'd start with the family GP and seek a referral to a specialist to determine the the cause - scans at least to rule out a few things, from there the specialist would be the best one to advice as to where to go next. Only problem is a large portion of people with LBP it's asymptomatic, scans will show nothing.

From anecdotal experience from patients, wandering in a random physio, chiro or osteo clinic is rarely hit and mostly a miss experience.

 

[Trickymac]

The obvious question is "who is the health care professional " to consult ?

Pain- neurologist ?
Functional - physio / gp with special interest ?
Surgical - orthopedics ?
Vertebroplasty - radiologist?

a good place to start would be your gp and he can refer you on for scans or to another health professional, but also osteopaths/physios/and chiros are musculoskeltal experts, your problem is musculosjeltal, they are educated enought to be able to give you the advice you need and if not refer you to someone who can

 

[Baseball67]

Much thanks for the helpful replies,
Like others I have seen many physio's over the years to no avail, local GP has as much idea as me I think, Am presently looking for a specialist with an interest in cycling.First stop a proper bike fit for all of my bikes, then specialist, then work on it over winter. Once again thanks for the response's obviously a common one with cyclists, my gut feeling is that the large glute muscle's overstrain small lower back muscle's and that it is worse for some people(myself) than others and that I need to find a way to strengthen or lessen the load through better position and/or better flexibility. Cheers

 

[shirtz]

As a health professional, who has previously worked in outpatient pain clinic with 98% of patients having serious LBP.... I'd start with the family GP and seek a referral to a specialist to determine the the cause - scans at least to rule out a few things, from there the specialist would be the best one to advice as to where to go next. Only problem is a large portion of people with LBP it's asymptomatic, scans will show nothing.

From anecdotal experience from patients, wandering in a random physio, chiro or osteo clinic is rarely hit and mostly a miss experience.

this has been my experience. ive tried al of the above and am at a loose end. Physio possibly have been the best for me, but im yet to find "the one" who can fix my back..

 

[shakes]

this has been my experience. ive tried al of the above and am at a loose end. Physio possibly have been the best for me, but im yet to find "the one" who can fix my back..

Had similar experiences - I found one that looked at me as a whole 'oh your glutes are tight' ' your hamstrings aren't that stretchy' 'you slump you shoulders' Most you walk into and they seem to just prescribe 'core work' rather than looking at the bigger picture.

 

[Jillkins]

Such type of the pains takes a lot times to handle this one therefore it is better to take the physiotherapy treatment to examine himself by such doctors for providing the permanent relief to the body as well.
therapy documentation software

 

[downhill mofo]

I fractured a couple vertebra in my back and had a lot of trouble with it while riding
the best advise I can give is find some pilates classes and go atleast once a week
most lower back promblems are a matter of strengthening the right muscles to support your back
if you hunch over when you sit or stand it is important to make sure you sit up strait ALL THE TIME!
essentially it is you core that you need to strengthen
but you also need to make sure the "bigger" muscles in your body are strong eg. lats, quads as these can lead to other mucles being sore or tight
so the best advice I could give was attend some pilates classes and also see a physico every now an then to loosen things up to alow your muscles to strengthen properly

 

[Mywifesirrational]

I fractured a couple vertebra in my back and had a lot of trouble with it while riding
the best advise I can give is find some pilates classes and go atleast once a week
most lower back promblems are a matter of strengthening the right muscles to support your back
if you hunch over when you sit or stand it is important to make sure you sit up strait ALL THE TIME!
essentially it is you core that you need to strengthen
but you also need to make sure the "bigger" muscles in your body are strong eg. lats, quads as these can lead to other mucles being sore or tight
so the best advice I could give was attend some pilates classes and also see a physico every now an then to loosen things up to alow your muscles to strengthen properly

I don't entirely agree with this (the pilates and core focus), the evidence for this approach is severely lacking. If it worked for you that's great, but I have meet plenty of clients where this has not worked or actually made their symptoms worse.

Posted this a year ago. http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?246702-Core-Stability-a-neuroscience-approach

 

[steve job's pancreas]

Having read this thread I fear for the interweb, self diagnosis via the interweb is one of the key reasons for it's existence, like email is for "enlargement" information.

I have never considered the idea that "core" muscles do not exist or that exercises aimed to strengthen the core are a waste of time, Laird Hamilton will devo'ed, all that money he made by polluting surf line ups with fat businessmen perched on SUPs won't erase the shame.

Is everything a scam?

BTW I am not disputing the claim that they don't exist, it's just something I had never considered. I suppose I should go to a health professional but at my age he will want to carry out certain "unplesantries" once I enter his lair, stuff that.

 

[leighaus]

loosen your toight hammies mate! then youll be deadlifting 300kg again in no time