NSW Increased visitation to National parks: Have your say

[nrthrnben]

We need numbers tonight!

Calling all Downhill and Cross country riders in Sydney, Show your support for sustainable trails in National Parks tonight!

Turramurra: Thursday 7th October 6-8pm, Turramurra Bowling Club, 181 Bobbin Head Road Turramurra. Please RSVP to 13PARK (137275) or annual.passes@environment.nsw.gov.au.

 

[Wiffle]

Just a quick reminder to all those in sth Sydney region that the public forum is on tonight at Sutherland services club, east pde at 6pm. If you ride, you owe it to yourself and future generations of riders to be there and voice your support.

 

[crank1979]

I received this today after asking how the issue was progressing...

Thank you for your inquiry and attendance at the public forums.

As you are aware, on 10 September 2010 NPWS launched a consultation process regarding mountain biking in national parks and reserves, commencing with a Discussion Paper to seek public comment on potential opportunities in the state’s national parks and reserves. This was followed by several public forums held around the state with around 350 people attending overall. There has been a significant public response to the Discussion Paper, with 2,310 comments posted online, 184 submissions received via email and 7 submissions received by mail. The majority of submissions demonstrated significant public support for the proposal to provide more opportunities for mountain biking in national parks where appropriate.

Following the public consultation process, concerns were raised by some members of conservation groups that the process did not allow their views to be adequately addressed. NPWS is committed to ensuring that all stakeholders have the opportunity to have their views heard and properly considered. As a result, additional targeted workshops were held in February 2011 to offer members of conservation groups the opportunity to contribute any comments that they felt unable to express during the previous workshops. These workshops were conducted by a facilitator nominated by the National Parks Association (NPA). Around 35 people attended these workshops and 6 people provided feedback over the phone.

NPWS is currently analysing the comments made in the submissions, open public meetings and targeted workshops. The database of comments is also being verified by an independent analyst. The final report on the findings of the public consultation process will be prepared by the end of June 2011, with the resulting Sustainable Mountain Biking Strategy and associated cycling policy to be finalised by October this year.

We appreciate your continuing interest and involvement in this issue.

I'm assuming that the 6 people providing feedback over the phone was a result of the second round of meetings but I can't see why they would be accepted for the review.

 

[pharmaboy]

We had a plan of management invitation for feedback for Glenrock in newcastle - there were hundreds of submisisons, of which a couple of dozen were in support, and the hundreds that i read were from mountain bikers pointing out the various shortcomings.

the proposed POM didnt change at all - the vast majority of subsmissions were completely ignored - its called making people feel like they are being consulted, then ignoring them - the public service call this "buy in".

have low expectations and be forever rewarded.

 

[sammydog]

If you have a shallow look, yes it appears things were ignored in he glenrock POM. The reality is far different.

We have a massive budget dedicate to trails and signage. Yes, the south was lost but this was really to get the POM through the process with mtb included at all. I the local staff had pushed the south, I guarantee we would have received no trails.

Trust me, I have spent the last two weeks working with World Trail and NPWS staff (and two bobcats, a mini excavator and tractor) and we have been discussing future trail potential I. The park along with other potential outcomes. We built today what amounts to a mini mountaincross trail on the tip site.

Speak to people outside Newcastle and they wish their NPWS listened tv way ours has. Locally they pushed through the POM the maximum they thought they could, more will follow.

NPWS are changing, it's up to us to embrace it, work with it and guide it.

 

[pharmaboy]

. Yes, the south was lost but this was really to get the POM through the process with mtb included at all. I the local staff had pushed the south, I guarantee we would have received no trails.

NPWS are changing, it's up to us to embrace it, work with it and guide it.

So, they asked for our input, but if we all gave it the way we thought it should be , then they'd have made the outcome even worse? - bit of a poison chalice, no?

Sorry sammydog, maybe you are right - whether you are or not of course is opinion,.... but - they asked for input with no expectation of actually listening to it - pretty much exactly as you say - they asked, but it couldnt really be given. Thats a sham, a pretence and lacks integrity - the eco warriors and millionaires row beat us off with 2 or 3 phone calls - and WE have to be grateful?????????

BTW I am grateful for the trails- but it will take a lot to replace bustop, as a real once only not repeated trail anywhere imo

 

[sammydog]

We weren't beaten by anyone other than the NPWS traditional unease with mtb's. The notification and consultation was genuine. It resulted in trails like shaft, Suess Land and even BJ's being retained. They were off the table for a long time. Inthe end a political game was played to find a balance.

Post POM we are even looking at adding additional trails that were not in the POM.

I would say, and maybe I am a bit biased, that in the context of working within the NPWS machine what we have achieved is nothing short of amazing and our recent work post POM works have put the NPWS at ease with trails. The speed at which their attitude and perceptions are changing is awesome.

We will get trails back in the south with time, so while I would prefer not to loose the trails, I can live with it being lost in the short term if it helps the bigger picture.

The GTA's tree planting and weed pulling day last week earnt some major kudos with a couple of local green groups. We are heading the right way and doors are opening. It's just a slow process.

 

[Refreshinglygood]

So, they asked for our input, but if we all gave it the way we thought it should be , then they'd have made the outcome even worse? - bit of a poison chalice, no?

Sorry sammydog, maybe you are right - whether you are or not of course is opinion,.... but - they asked for input with no expectation of actually listening to it - pretty much exactly as you say - they asked, but it couldnt really be given. Thats a sham, a pretence and lacks integrity - the eco warriors and millionaires row beat us off with 2 or 3 phone calls - and WE have to be grateful?????????

BTW I am grateful for the trails- but it will take a lot to replace bustop, as a real once only not repeated trail anywhere imo

yes we lost some trail, but realistic we end up with a better network of trails. The thing about this whole process is that there were actually a number of obstacles within the whole process that needed to be overcome. Now, you can take a bull at a gate approach, demanding certain outcomes, or you can work with the system. I think the choice to work with the system was the correct one. The proof is in the pudding. I was at the consultation process as well, and indeed it seemed bleak, however this is what consultation is all about.

 

[Bucket Master]

...- the vast majority of subsmissions were completely ignored - its called making people feel like they are being consulted, then ignoring them - the public service call this "buy in".

There can be substantial difference between submissions.

A well researched and argued submission should carry more weight than "This area is fully sick mate, we should be able to just rip it up and do what eva in there - yeah!"

So while the majority of submission may be pro or against development it's the job of the professionals involved to go through and weigh up to merits of each submission.

That said, weight in numbers does have influence but numbers alone are not the be all and end all in public consultation

 

[pharmaboy]

There can be substantial difference between submissions.

A well researched and argued submission should carry more weight than "This area is fully sick mate, we should be able to just rip it up and do what eva in there - yeah!"

So while the majority of submission may be pro or against development it's the job of the professionals involved to go through and weigh up to merits of each submission.

That said, weight in numbers does have influence but numbers alone are not the be all and end all in public consultation

I sat down with a group of professionals as we put together arguments against the POM - rest assured, they were put together carefully and professionaly. Right at the beginning a friend whose worked at the lands dept, read the POM, and said in his opinion the decisions been made, the consultative process is there for it to be seen to be there, and that all you can do is slightly modify the decision thats already made.

There is always 2 ways to approach a situation such as this, and when the other side holds all the cards and all the power, consideration should go to willful disobedience and protests as a completely legitimate tactic.

Sometimes the cost benefit ratio requires a win/lose approach.

 

[pharmaboy]

yes we lost some trail, but realistic we end up with a better network of trails. The thing about this whole process is that there were actually a number of obstacles within the whole process that needed to be overcome. Now, you can take a bull at a gate approach, demanding certain outcomes, or you can work with the system. I think the choice to work with the system was the correct one. The proof is in the pudding. I was at the consultation process as well, and indeed it seemed bleak, however this is what consultation is all about.

whether we end up with a better network is a maybe or maybe not - certainly the money been spent and effort are a nice surprise, and we may well get there in the end - after all if you build something better, people will ride it and stop riding the other stuff - there are stacks of trails that go away because a better alternative was built. If we had been told the whole area was mtb free, it wouldnt have made any difference - the status quo was that we rode illegal trails all the time.

Ultimately thats what its all about, the status quo is fine, the introduction of plans of mgmt hold only a downside for mtb'ers. Unless of course you never ride anywhere apart from sanctioned tracks? Me, no way - hell, i even drive above the speed limit to.

Trying to be factual -

we had the defacto use of the whole area

Now, we have half.

On the plus side we have some improved existing trails, and seems as of this week, maybe 500m of brand new trail

Think back to before the POM, and estimate how much new trail we got each year from illegal (but excellent) builders. There is always a cost.

BTW - the reason I ma making these points is because members of this forum might be under the impression that Glenrock is a fantastic success of the process of NPWS - the people who mostly post on the topic were part of the process and naturally see it as a good result. I sometimes talk to other mtb'ers that agree, but at least half dont think it was a good result, and further have no intention at all of sticking to the closures - in fact I'd say the vast majority still ride the other side, and you'd have to be living under a rock not to know we have been banned - -wait till the first signs go up, and we'll see how swimingly happy evryone else is about losing half their track.

 

[sammydog]

I was on the Consultative Committee that helped formulate the POM and I think the POM was anything but a done deal prior to notification.

To be brutally honest, I was expecting for us to loose some more trail due to the public submissions.

At this stage with the work the NPWS are throwing into the trail network, it would be massively counter productive (for mountainbiking in NP's in NSW, not just glenrock) if riders took on a public disobedience campaign when trails are closed over the next 12 months.

Like I've said, behind the scenes we are already discussing new trails and finding ways to finance them. Disobeying closures when they happen will do nothing but erode the headway we have made. NPWS are becoming very comfortable and supportive of the trails and are actively looking at allowing a few more. Public disobedience at this point would likely shut that door.

We have it pretty good in glenrock at the moment, no need to upset the applecart.

For those unfamiliar with what's happening in glenrock have a look at http://www.glenrocktrailalliance.com.

 

[raintonr]

BTW I am grateful for the trails- but it will take a lot to replace bustop, as a real once only not repeated trail anywhere imo

Reading a couple of posts you put up here it doesn't sound like you are very grateful

You've got a great area up at Glenrock with an infinite amount more authorised single track then in the whole of NPWS managed land in Northern Sydney (land that is many numbers of times greater in area than Glenrock yet contains a grand total of ZERO metres of authorised single track!).

You should be thankful to have friendly and supportive NPWS staff that stick their neck out for riders up there on this one.

If you are really grateful, shut up complaining and attacking NPWS, and thank them for the privilege of being able to keep a lot of single track on their land, a privilege that has eluded most riders elsewhere in the state, and especially down here in Sydney despite years of campaigning

 

[Nerf Herder]

The GTA's tree planting and weed pulling day last week earnt some major kudos with a couple of local green groups. We are heading the right way and doors are opening. It's just a slow process.

Thats awesome news and good work to the organisers and vollies for getting in there.

BMORC have been invited to share a portion of the NPWS exhibit at the annual Hawkesbury Show ... and today I was looking through some of the other guest's exhibits and one of these were Friends of the Colo [River] ... They have focused on eliminating Willows [which are a weed infesting [did infest] the Colo river] ... Anyway, I was reading how NPWS now chopper them into remote areas ... they survey and record weed species/populations etc, do some eradication ... and paddle back.

How bloody awesome is that. Win/Win ... they get to enjoy their sport, make a difference and help with conservation.

I strongly believe this is what we as riders can also make an impact on.

BMORC have started helping the Yellowmundee Aboriginal Bushcare group with some tree planting and initial weed eradication ... early days and we need more numbers to attend ... but definitely shows we are serious about conserving the bush we love to ride in.

After talking to a few of the rangers, I've become somewhat positive again that we are heading in the right direction ... Unfortunately DH is still dead IMO, but time will tell.

 

[crank1979]

Having officially been shut out of my local tracks and doing the Loftus/RNP track days each month (although not the last three due to injury, weather and Capital Punishment), I think what the NPWS is doing at Glenrock and Yellomundee is brilliant. Especially when I compare it to how things are done at the RNP. I believe a lot of that has to do with work going on behind the scenes by small groups or individuals and these guys and girls also ned to be thanked for their time and effort, which after trying unsuccessfully for over a year to get legal access to my local tracks I think I can understand some of what those people have been doing.

I understand that not everyone has the time to dedicate to gaining legal access and working with the appropriate groups. It is important tthough that everyone gives a hand when possible. That might mean making a submission next time a PoM is up for review if there is something in the current one you aren't happy with. Being a little cynical myself and having also been part of consultation processes for other government departments I tend to think that the bigger picture is generally already settled on. But there is still scope to make little changes within that framework that can be built upon next time, like using the initial consultation process as the thin end of the wedge.

 

[pharmaboy]

Reading a couple of posts you put up here it doesn't sound like you are very grateful

You've got a great area up at Glenrock with an infinite amount more authorised single track then in the whole of NPWS managed land in Northern Sydney (land that is many numbers of times greater in area than Glenrock yet contains a grand total of ZERO metres of authorised single track!).

Great -so Sydney siders have been royally fucked up the arse by a body of govt and are pissed (as they should be) - However glenrock has been fucked up the arse, but far more gently, and then we've been given a nice crispy creme doughnut to make us feel better about the anal violation?

It was better before the POM was even thought of

Good on all the people that have a bit of land that should have nothing whatsoever to do with National parks, get booted off a large part of it, and then should be grateful for it? Grateful for the great works done by world trail is completely separate from my disdain for the NPWS (the beaurocrats not the local rangers) and their interference in crown land

Glenrock has had a HUGE win - we have only had half our trail taken off us - I take more of a Wayne bennet view of the situation YMMV

 

[sammydog]

If you look at the south, we were always going to loose access to the trail from the creek to the scout camp. It's been designated for a disabled access style walk for a long time. It wasn't going to be multi use.

That essentially cuts the south off. We may have had an argument for bus stop if the trail down from surfers walk (log on log off) wasn't such a mess. Worst constructed trail in glenrock that was constructed by mtb's and reopened by mtb's after NPWS closed it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy about the loss of access. Elvis rock is a personal favorite spot of mine to ride to stop and just watch the world. Almost a theraputic place.

We weren't raped up the arse, both sides of the table compromised for a workable solution. Not everyone is going to be happy with it, but it has allowed NPWS to actually be educated about mtb and become more comfortable with it. The south will be back and it will be better.

NPWS are currently looking for more funding for our trails, and World Trail haven't finished with the current funds. We have been far from raped.

Glenrock has also led to NPWS offering up a few other parks in Lake Macquarie and Newcastle for access. I think rather than cracking it at the NPWS who are affording us access, we should be asking Lake Mac and Newcastle Councils why they won't. Glenrock links via cycleways verywell into bushland in these areas, that's where an epic network will come from n

 

[raintonr]

Glenrock has had a HUGE win - we have only had half our trail taken off us

No, as I said before - it is a huge win because you have been authorised to use the land for single track MTB riding which is far more than happens on most NPWS managed land in the state.

Glass half full, glass half empty? Think about it.

BTW - if you want to have a balanced conversation you might like to avoid the foul language. You're not doing yourself or other MTB riders any service with that language or attitude. You do realise that the anti-MTB lobby read forums like this and will be rubbing their hands at the ammunition you are handing over. Your comments will make a fantastic argument against other riders when they shove it under the nose of the local council or politicians and claim that we are all swearing, irresponsible louts that don't deserve the time of day.

 

[Refreshinglygood]

this whole conversation is very bizarre. At the end of the day it isn't "our" land and they aren't "our" trails. NPWS's job is to make sure that the bush is around for others to enjoy in the future. 2 years ago we were going to be shut out of glenrock all together, now we have NPWS spending large amounts of money creating new trail for us (Read again, FOR US) Whats the problem???? so we have been asked to stay out of the south side. yep, most riders will ignore this, i probably will to from time to time, but that isn't really the point is it.

The point is. NPWS don't have to let us in at all. We have had particular NPWS employee's fight for us, while others would shut us out all together.

Lets keep perspective here. the members of the mtb community that you have advocated well for us in Glenrock cared to educate themselves on the issues, they cared enough to represent the community very very well, they cared enough to form relationships with the key stakeholders, and then they had the brains to realize that they needed to compromise with the system and the people that run it (no i am not one of those advocates). The proof is in the pudding. I rode up there yesterday. World trail have been cutting in all kinds of new lines ( where else in NSW is a 4 cross track being built on NPWS land). Go and ride the new stuff and tell me all the advocacy hasn't been worth it. We have sections of trail in there that rival rotorua.
Stop the bitching about what we haven't got and how we might feel that the bureaucracy is a farce and go and ride what we have. Really, this is a sport, it isn't the most important thing in life.

 

[pharmaboy]

this whole conversation is very bizarre. At the end of the day it isn't "our" land and they aren't "our" trails. NPWS's job is to make sure that the bush is around for others to enjoy in the future. 2 years ago we were going to be shut out of glenrock all together, now we have NPWS spending large amounts of money creating new trail for us (Read again, FOR US) Whats the problem???? so we have been asked to stay out of the south side. yep, most riders will ignore this, i probably will to from time to time, but that isn't really the point is it.

The point is. NPWS don't have to let us in at all. We have had particular NPWS employee's fight for us, while others would shut us out all together.

Lets keep perspective here. the members of the mtb community that you have advocated well for us in Glenrock cared to educate themselves on the issues, they cared enough to represent the community very very well, they cared enough to form relationships with the key stakeholders, and then they had the brains to realize that they needed to compromise with the system and the people that run it (no i am not one of those advocates). The proof is in the pudding. I rode up there yesterday. World trail have been cutting in all kinds of new lines ( where else in NSW is a 4 cross track being built on NPWS land). Go and ride the new stuff and tell me all the advocacy hasn't been worth it. We have sections of trail in there that rival rotorua.
Stop the bitching about what we haven't got and how we might feel that the bureaucracy is a farce and go and ride what we have. Really, this is a sport, it isn't the most important thing in life.

there is space for all opinions on what has happened -I'm simply providing mine, especially as lots of other areas are getting into battles. Unfortunately coming from the side of mtb, we are in a no win situation, we only lose a bit or lose a lot. I suspect most of the problems come from legal fears - I'd have to say that generally mtb'ers are the sort of people who hold themselves personally responsible for their outcomes and dont go whining to lawyers..

Now , is the advocacy worth it? Well of course it is. is it the only course of action? I think anyone would be stupid to consider it the only option.

And yes i did ride the shaft new section yesterday a few times and was well impressed - no doubt the better the trail is on the north, the less the south will be ridden. FWIW whenever i encounter a walker I make a point of slowing to walking speed and saying hello - I had a chat to the world trail guys as well yesterday AND the NPWS guy working with them.

I have to say the outcomes at the moment with world trail are great, but to my knowledge they werent promised as part of the POM, they had to be taken on faith that the funding would be found and it would be done - Tiffany seems to be on the carrot side of things to me - quid pro quo.

next week is snakes and ladders i hear, so that will be a huge test of whether the replacement line is enough to to keep people off the heather run.