People I would fight...

toodles

toodles

Wheel size expert
scblack said:
I've had a "fight" with Johnny in Coffs Harbour. Quite a good one too - one of the roll-a-doors at a shopping alleyway did not come out so good and was smashed in. A friendly fight it was so good fun.:single_eye:
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Fighting Johnny doesn't count. You're not a real Rotorburn member until you've had a scrap with that mincy little worm...

In saying that, I've personally seen him frog-march a bouncer around while holding him in a wrist lock. Johnny drunk is a worrying individual.
 
S.

S.

ex offender
moorey said:
I suggest you do a little research on what is actually happening instead of watching what is being selectively reported.
Yeah, there's a few hangers on and a few opportunists.....just like at any protest, but the core of the movement is well aware of how shitty things have become, and how much worse things are likely to become.
I urge you to listen TTY the occupy themed episodes of "the best of the left" podcasts, or "the young Turks" free audio podcast. I think it will give you a greater appreciation of the situation and how it is being intentionaly being reported so badly.
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The simple fact is that the Occupy protesters haven't actually made any real tangible demands. Stopping "corporate greed" is the equivalent to preventing a survival instinct in humans on the premise that a situation might arise where one person's survival requires that he harm or kill somebody else, it's something you'll never erase because "greed" aka the requirement that a business profits, is necessary for the business's survival. When they actually put forward some SPECIFIC arguments rather than airy fairy bullshit (and yes, I've gone over the actual Occupy movement's own website among others) then maybe they'll be considered to have some legitimacy, but until then, scblack is on the money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#Origin for anyone who's interested.

And yeah, I'd fight any one of the Occupy protesters in Australia. It's VAGUELY relevant, at best, in the US. It's completely irrelevant in Aus.
 
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moorey

moorey

call me Mia
Technically, yes, OWS, has no official list. That's the nature of a movement designed intentionally to have no leader. But the generally accepted list is widely known and clear, though not written in stone.
If you want to bury your head in the sand, fine. If you want to read the most commonly accepted demands, the full version is at https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
Another defacto aim has become an amendment to the constitution http://www.wolf-pac.com/

It's easy to dismiss the movement, and you are entitled to do so, but to say that the demands of Occupy are unknown or unclear is disingenuous.
 
DJninja

DJninja

Likes Bikes and Dirt
S. said:
The simple fact is that the Occupy protesters haven't actually made any real tangible demands. Stopping "corporate greed" is the equivalent to preventing a survival instinct in humans on the premise that a situation might arise where one person's survival requires that he harm or kill somebody else, it's something you'll never erase because "greed" aka the requirement that a business profits, is necessary for the business's survival. When they actually put forward some SPECIFIC arguments rather than airy fairy bullshit (and yes, I've gone over the actual Occupy movement's own website among others) then maybe they'll be considered to have some legitimacy, but until then, scblack is on the money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#Origin for anyone who's interested.

And yeah, I'd fight any one of the Occupy protesters in Australia. It's VAGUELY relevant, at best, in the US. It's completely irrelevant in Aus.
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Have you considered that it is so hard to forumulate a remedy that no one has been able to properly articulate it? That people are unhappy with what they see around them, can't think of a solution, but still want to do something about it? Occupy is a state of anarchy because its seeking to reboot the entire way we live. Just because they can't think of the solution to all the problems of the world doesn't mean they don't exist.

If you were headed up against the biggest obstacle you have ever faced, but currently had no way to resolve it, would you concede and try to live your life around it, or would you try to do something about it?

For one thing the a core pillar of modern economics is floored in that the invisible hand does not work. Environmental destruction and social inequality are two major problems capitalism has not only failed to solve but has caused to increase rapidly (this mainly applies to the environmental damage). Capitalism was polarised as the epitome of economic society, meant to solve all of our problems, and being an exact reflection of the natural order. It hasn't and people are unhappy and want change. Neoclassical economics is far out of line with the environment in which it operates and this is directly reflected in the problems that it creates. I think the lack of internalisation of the environment into the economic system is one of its fatal floors.

I see a lot of people putting forward the argument about being unable to change human nature. Fundamentally evolution is real, and instincts can evolve on a global level. What time scale this occurs is up the the weight of the meme. The human brain is infinitely malleable and that is all that matters.

Capitalism has done well to individualise and commodity each persons contribution to society and I think now the evolution will move towards equality. Not a society without leadership and without power, but where these positions exist but aren't abused.

Capitalism is not a reflection of the natural order. It is a skewed abstract created and manipulated by humans for the advantage of some to the loss of many.



I haven't really put the best arguments forward but hopefully I've given some something to ponder. Remember that just because in your own subjective reality you don't experience a problem, it doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist.
 
S.

S.

ex offender
moorey said:
Technically, yes, OWS, has no official list. That's the nature of a movement designed intentionally to have no leader. But the generally accepted list is widely known and clear, though not written in stone.
If you want to bury your head in the sand, fine. If you want to read the most commonly accepted demands, the full version is at https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
Another defacto aim has become an amendment to the constitution http://www.wolf-pac.com/

It's easy to dismiss the movement, and you are entitled to do so, but to say that the demands of Occupy are unknown or unclear is disingenuous.
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Good link, thanks. I retract my claim that the entire Occupy movement is irrelevant, and put forward that it is instead simply incredibly disorganised - and still irrelevant in Australia. These demands are IMO very reasonable (in my relatively uneducated opinion)... for America. However, a lot of the CLAIMS and propaganda being put forward, particularly those in Australia (which has comparatively restricted trading policies and certainly lacks the well funded lobbyists that the US administration has to deal with) are retarded. You don't improve credibility by simply MAKING STUFF UP, like some of the "graphs" I've seen bandied around.

DJninja said:
Have you considered that it is so hard to forumulate a remedy that no one has been able to properly articulate it? That people are unhappy with what they see around them, can't think of a solution, but still want to do something about it? Occupy is a state of anarchy because its seeking to reboot the entire way we live. Just because they can't think of the solution to all the problems of the world doesn't mean they don't exist.

If you were headed up against the biggest obstacle you have ever faced, but currently had no way to resolve it, would you concede and try to live your life around it, or would you try to do something about it?

For one thing the a core pillar of modern economics is floored in that the invisible hand does not work. Environmental destruction and social inequality are two major problems capitalism has not only failed to solve but has caused to increase rapidly (this mainly applies to the environmental damage). Capitalism was polarised as the epitome of economic society, meant to solve all of our problems, and being an exact reflection of the natural order. It hasn't and people are unhappy and want change. Neoclassical economics is far out of line with the environment in which it operates and this is directly reflected in the problems that it creates. I think the lack of internalisation of the environment into the economic system is one of its fatal floors.

I see a lot of people putting forward the argument about being unable to change human nature. Fundamentally evolution is real, and instincts can evolve on a global level. What time scale this occurs is up the the weight of the meme. The human brain is infinitely malleable and that is all that matters.

Capitalism has done well to individualise and commodity each persons contribution to society and I think now the evolution will move towards equality. Not a society without leadership and without power, but where these positions exist but aren't abused.

Capitalism is not a reflection of the natural order. It is a skewed abstract created and manipulated by humans for the advantage of some to the loss of many.



I haven't really put the best arguments forward but hopefully I've given some something to ponder. Remember that just because in your own subjective reality you don't experience a problem, it doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist.
Click to expand...
Pure capitalism is in fact a reflection of the natural order of all non-sapient beings (animals that aren't self-aware), that is to say, it is a reflection of the survival/reproduction instincts that all living creatures possess, but like all creatures that aren't sapient, it isn't capable of anything but shortsightedness and selfishness (whereas human beings are capable of long term planning), however it's obvious that without some incentive to improve your own quality of life, there's no reason to work hard unless you're under threat, which is the main problem with alternatives to capitalism. I'm certainly not claiming that there is no problems with our economic or governmental systems, just that the protesters are doing a largely shithouse job of making their point, and in many cases, destroying their own credibility by pushing bullshit claims and transparent, unimaginative fight-the-power propaganda. When 500 people turn up in a city of 4 million (eg Melbourne) and then claim "we are the 99%" and that they represent the views of 99% of the population, calling for "democracy"... how is anyone meant to take that seriously?
 
Hugle

Hugle

Likes Dirt
S., I agree with you; things are good in Australia! We have rules and regulations to curtail corporate greed, transparency in political donations and haven't had to deal with the subprime mortgage can of worms that has hit the states so hard. However, I think there is a global trend towards americanisation; in the food we eat, the music we listen too, how we dress etc. along with the adoption of neo-liberal politics (pushed in part by the world bank and IMF). I think the occupy protests in Australia may be seen more as awareness raising; warning that if we follow the trend of privatisation and unchecked market based capitalism, we may find ourselves in the same position the US is in now. The way i see it, things in Australia aren't nearly as bad as other places in the world, but they have the potential to be so in the future, giving 'Occupy Australia' a different purpose to the other occupy movements.
 
DJninja

DJninja

Likes Bikes and Dirt
S. said:
Pure capitalism is in fact a reflection of the natural order of all non-sapient beings (animals that aren't self-aware), that is to say, it is a reflection of the survival/reproduction instincts that all living creatures possess, but like all creatures that aren't sapient, it isn't capable of anything but shortsightedness and selfishness (whereas human beings are capable of long term planning), however it's obvious that without some incentive to improve your own quality of life, there's no reason to work hard unless you're under threat, which is the main problem with alternatives to capitalism. I'm certainly not claiming that there is no problems with our economic or governmental systems, just that the protesters are doing a largely shithouse job of making their point, and in many cases, destroying their own credibility by pushing bullshit claims and transparent, unimaginative fight-the-power propaganda. When 500 people turn up in a city of 4 million (eg Melbourne) and then claim "we are the 99%" and that they represent the views of 99% of the population, calling for "democracy"... how is anyone meant to take that seriously?
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The term "99%" and "1%" are definitely highly cringe worthy. And you are right in saying that the pure capitalism is theoretically a reflection of the struggle for existence. I guess the fundamental flaw then is not capitalism itself but the people who are using it.

Capitalism dissolves the collective rights and therefore collaborative reasoning of society. Each person is comodified as a unit of production, while at the same time slowly eroding their sense of community and the need to rely on others. The natural order may well be that living is a zero sum game and each person must do what they can to survive. But this sort of situation calls for reciprocal altruism as well as personal gratification.

I'm really struggling to type what I want as it's an insanely complex area. The crux of my argument is that an individualistic approach is not solving the worlds problems. What will solve them is a convergence of human consciousness to a point where it is embedded that an individual units contribution to society is to be selfless not selfish. Basically to survive we need to start working together and not against each other a lot more. And economic structures need to reflect this.

We're only just starting to realise now thanks to climate change and large scale environmental destruction, that the problems of another person, family, community, suburb, city, state, country, continent, hemisphere or earth are the problems of every other person, family, community, suburb, city, state, country, continent, hemisphere or earth are becoming.

Occupy is just the seed of an idea in the hope for change.

People need to stop being so fucking selfish and put out there hands to others.
 
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