Pivot Mach 6 + Push Industries ElevenSix Coil over shock

[teK--]

Good stuff! I'd have to say there is nothing that beats a custom tuned damper it really is amazing the first time you take it out on the trails.

May I ask if you have ridden a custom tuned before, and secondly if you've ridden a coil spring? I'm just trying to determine which of the two is most noticeable improvement.

I haven't ridden a coil before so am intrigued by this.

Also, what didn't you like about the factory shock?

 

[EsPeGe]

May I ask if you have ridden a custom tuned before,

Ok, so no, I haven't had custom tuned before. The closest I have been is when I banged on the EVOL canister onto my Fox Float X.

and secondly if you've ridden a coil spring?

Nope this is my first coil on my own bike. I did a day in a bike park in Italy this year using a coil but that was only a day and on a DH bike so I have bugger all experience in a coil.

Also, what didn't you like about the factory shock?

Nothing. I liked the air shock (but didn't know any better) but was always keen to find something that might improve my ride. I'm a forum nerd and came across the ElevenSix whilst forum surfing. I read a lot about the shock before committing. The talk about the ElevenSix was unbelievable so I thought I would get onto one. First ride was great. I'm out again tomorrow so hopefully will get a better feel for it over the next few rides.

Cheers Scott.

 

[EsPeGe]

I'm just trying to determine which of the two is most noticeable improvement.

Hard to say. I honestly don't think I know enough to be able to say. Sorry.

 

[Ky1e]

I'm also intrigued by the eleven six. Although I can't justify the money I would be interested to see how it compares to a well set up dB air or dB coil.

 

[EsPeGe]

I'm also intrigued by the eleven six. Although I can't justify the money I would be interested to see how it compares to a well set up dB air or dB coil.

Wish I could help but I have no experience with either.

 

[EsPeGe]

I'm also intrigued by the eleven six. Although I can't justify the money I would be interested to see how it compares to a well set up dB air or dB coil.

If you feel like a wade through 20 odd pages of forum thread there is a little here on comparisons.

http://forums.mtbr.com/santa-cruz/pu...ew-960190.html

 

[placebo]

Also, what didn't you like about the factory shock?

Having owned a M6 coming from a firebird with an ccdb coil, I thought the CTD shock on the M6 was only average. Replacing the fox with a ccdb air on the M6 was a definite improvement. There's got to be a fair bit of position sensitive shenanigans with the 11-6 on the M6 to make it work. I used a corset sleeve with the CTD on the M6 and didn't think the more linear spring rate helped at all. The M6 rate curve is pretty well optimised for an air shock, compared with something like the firebird.

You can see how the leverage rate of the M6 suspension deviates from a standard rising rate to compensate for the idiosyncracies of a standard (non evol, debonair, or corset) air spring:

You can compare the rate of the M6 to something like the straight rising rate of the firebird which was originally recommended to use a ccdb or rc4 coil shock in addition to the rp23:

 

[placebo]

As a further point of comparison, here are type of rate curves that a coil shock or corset really helps with:

They're almost the inverse of the M6 and 5.7 curves.

 

[teK--]

Having owned a M6 coming from a firebird with an ccdb coil, I thought the CTD shock on the M6 was only average. Replacing the fox with a ccdb air on the M6 was a definite improvement. There's got to be a fair bit of position sensitive shenanigans with the 11-6 on the M6 to make it work. I used a corset sleeve with the CTD on the M6 and didn't think the more linear spring rate helped at all. The M6 rate curve is pretty well optimised for an air shock, compared with something like the firebird.

You can see how the leverage rate of the M6 suspension deviates from a standard rising rate to compensate for the idiosyncracies of a standard (non evol, debonair, or corset) air spring:

You can compare the rate of the M6 to something like the straight rising rate of the firebird which was originally recommended to use a ccdb or rc4 coil shock in addition to the rp23:

Interesting. With the M6's rising leverage rate from the mid-stroke to end-stroke I wouldn't have thought it would be suited to a coil shock unless the wire was wound so it became stiffer near the end stroke (which the OP's shock does not look it is) ... or am I missing something?

 

[Rhys_]

You're right, and this is why Pivot say you should not run a coil shock on the Mach 6 or 5.7. However, the reality is it can be made to work, and made to work well with the right settings. Even though a coil wont have the end of stroke ramp up of an air shock, its linearity particularly through the mid stroke will help a lot, and you will spend less unnecessary time in that end of stroke range.

 

[jrewing]

You'd want a coil shock with adjustable reservoir volume adjustment. Like a revox rather than a ccdb

 

[placebo]

Interesting. With the M6's rising leverage rate from the mid-stroke to end-stroke I wouldn't have thought it would be suited to a coil shock unless the wire was wound so it became stiffer near the end stroke (which the OP's shock does not look it is) ... or am I missing something?

You've not missed anything, a progressive wound coil spring would help, or the 11-6 damper is custom tuned for the falling rate of the M6.

 

[redbruce]

or the 11-6 damper is custom tuned for the falling rate of the M6.

Yes but unless via spring rate, you are really only managing the symptom.

 

[EsPeGe]

You're right, and this is why Pivot say you should not run a coil shock on the Mach 6 or 5.7.

Not true any more, well at least for the Mach 6. Push worked with Pivot on this. As a result the ElevenSix is the only coil that can be used on the Mach 6 without voiding warranty.



So far Push have been awesome in giving me guidance on how to set this thing up. I had a second ride on it a few days ago and it definitely improves the handling of the bike. Once I have more time on it I will bang up a more substantive report.

Cheers Scott.

 

[EsPeGe]

, or the 11-6 damper is custom tuned for the falling rate of the M6.

At this point you blokes are talking way above my head but I do know that Push get each bike into their factory for something like a month and test it thoroughly to develop the settings for each shock. This ain't no off the shelf shock. As you'll see from the post above Push worked with Pivot and the Mach 6 Leverage ratios etc to come up with settings that suit this bike only. This shock can't be used on another bike. Well it can, but Push need to then rebuild it to suit the new bike with different springs, dampers etc. Darren the owner of Push actually rode the Mach 6 and developed the settings for the Mach 6 and from the short rides I've had so far it works!!!!!!

 

[teK--]

Yes but unless via spring rate, you are really only managing the symptom.

Position-sensitive ramp up of HSC?

 

[MARKL]

Interesting. With the M6's rising leverage rate from the mid-stroke to end-stroke...

The graph shows a rising rate, mechanical advantage is falling, until the bike gets to around 1/3 of travel - just past sag effectively. The previous graph then appears to show a slight falling rate, I would argue that it is linear from this point on and I have reprinted the graph from linkage without the other bikes to simplify it.



The numbers are:

Travel Lev.Ratio
0 2.864
10 2.754
20 2.665
30 2.596
40 2.543
50 2.504
60 2.475
70 2.455
80 2.443
90 2.435
100 2.431
110 2.430
120 2.430
130 2.430
140 2.430
150 2.429
155 2.428

Reality is the the Mach 6 is rising rate till around sag and is linear from this point on. This is why it as Pivot says it works with the rising rate of an air shock, it is actually a really good curve for a bike with an air shock, good leverage through sag and then tailing off to let the natural ramping up of an air shock take over.

 

[udi]

Linkage graphs are based on dot points picked by an end user from a photograph (in 99% of published cases) so they are rarely perfectly accurate and best used as a rough guide. You can see the end stroke digression in the graph below, so it's not linear - that said it's close enough to linear.

To clear up a few misconceptions here:

• Push can't magically generate a position-sensitive ramp profile via damping, damping in a non-platform-valved shock is speed sensitive (rather than speed AND position sensitive - i.e. boost valve, with a compression damping profile that requires a 3D graph to portray) so that paragraph from Pivot is a giant wank at best. If a speed-sensitive shock is compensating for end-stroke digression via damping then it's sacrificing bump absorption amongst other things.
• HSC is high *speed* compression - it refers to damping at medium-to-high shaft velocities, completely independent of where the shock is in its stroke. You can't use it to generate *position* dependent compression damping.
• Damping, even position sensitive (which the Push does NOT achieve) is not the same as spring rate so at best it's a blanket compensation rather than an actual solution.
• If a company is worried about frames breaking under bottom out loading, it's probably best to avoid. It's not that bottoming out harshly isn't bad for a frame, but if doing that a few times is going to crack it, it's not structurally sound in my book. This is backed up by numerous broken Mach6 and Mach5.7 frames. Of course if you have one already this is irrelevant, but it's worth reading between the lines on many things quoted here thus far.

 

[EsPeGe]

Push can't magically generate a position-sensitive ramp profile via damping, damping in a non-platform-valved shock is speed sensitive (rather than speed AND position sensitive - i.e. boost valve, with a compression damping profile that requires a 3D graph to portray) so that paragraph from Pivot is a giant wank at best.

I have no idea what any of what you said means! I am constantly reading more so that I can understand it all better. So can you explain why it's a wank? I'm not saying it isn't but Pivot (especially Chris Cocalis Pivot's owner and head designer) is pretty respected engineering wise and I find it hard to see what you see there. They know their product and how it should work and the fact that they've worked with Push to develop settings for this shock gives me confidence that it will work. Maybe I'm buying into the hype but I don't think so based on the short rides I've had with this thing on.

Again my understanding here is very limited but I thought (I'm being super general here) that air shocks ramp up towards the end of the stroke I'm guessing because air can only compress so much therefore it stops bottoming out where as a coil doesn't do this and that's why they have to have some form of bottom out protection. That's kind of what I see from that paragraph.

I'm not being precious here I'm keen to learn.

Cheers Scott.

 

[hifiandmtb]

^^^ What he said.