Speeding is bad, mmkay?

[Asininedrivel]

The fact that it's legal to ride a motorbike is weird.

Imagine if they never existed until now & someone wanted to legalise them. There'd be no way in hell it would ever happen.

Someone (may have been James May, may have been a carrot) suggested something similar about cars in general. "Imagine if someone came up with a consumable that ran on a explosively flammable substance, could travel well in excess of 100km/h and was able to be piloted by anyone with a rudimentary (read: crappy pathetically easy to obtain Australian) licence."

Would never, ever be made legal now.

 

[Haakon]

I've watched this a few times now... Its a road safety ad from the UK.

That's a very good thing his Mum did. That footage is horrific and so preventable. Sad the driver was charged, not their fault I think. They will have enough to deal with replaying that impact in their mind for the rest of their life.

I don't ride motorcycles, I get that same sense of fear and caution just in a (very "safe" many air bagged european) car - you'd probably not survive it at that closing speed even in an S Class Merc.

Slow the hell down people, and back off. That margin for error (yours or someone else) might just save your life.

Did a run to Melbourne and central Vic last weekend, and saw lots of behaviour that could have killed someone as quickly as this bloke. It's tailgating that gets me, so little respect for how far it takes to stop a car doing 110kph, so little respect for how quickly it will kill you for the sake of a few minutes saved.

The other one is the speed people maintain on narrow country roads... Virtually everyone I see will happily drive around corners at speeds far outstripping the ability to stop in the distance they can see. Just because the speed limit says 100, doesn't mean its safe to do that.

 

[Asininedrivel]

Just because the speed limit says 100, doesn't mean its safe to do that.

So much this. But as long as obtaining your driver's licence is focused on obeying road rules (rather than, I dunno, actually teaching you how to f***ing drive) then this attitude will continue.

 

[Haakon]

So much this. But as long as obtaining your driver's licence is focused on obeying road rules (rather than, I dunno, actually teaching you how to f***ing drive) then this attitude will continue.

Yep. Sat behind an old Landcruiser (not the last word in high speed handling!!) on L Plates tailgating (ie about 2 car lengths at 100kph) ute with a trailer on a narrow back country road.

Poor teacher, bad habits from the get go, and me staying well clear of the whole thing...

 

[redbruce]

The fact that it's legal to ride a motorbike is weird.

Imagine if they never existed until now & someone wanted to legalise them. There'd be no way in hell it would ever happen.

Along with cigarettes, alcohol, American fast food, vehicles with a power to weight more than 100kw/tonne (or more than 150Nm/tonne), young blokes with licenses...., and suicide.

But yeah, I get your drift.

Did a run to Melbourne and central Vic last weekend, and saw lots of behaviour that could have killed someone as quickly as this bloke. It's tailgating that gets me, so little respect for how far it takes to stop a car doing 110kph, so little respect for how quickly it will kill you for the sake of a few minutes saved.

Melbourne's driver behaviour is currently the worst its been for years. Regular red light running, tailgating, texting on the move (not just the province of young people but there does appear to be a gender bias), last minute lane changing (usually without indicators or at best one flash), impatient, discourteous, and did I mention red light running.

Are other major centers the same?

 

[Haakon]

Australian road culture in general is pretty shit, I don't notice all that much difference between towns. What difference there is I suppose is Hobart is a bit more chilled, Canberra is very aggressive towards bikes and Melbourne/Sydney is just busy and fast hence less relaxed.

Got tailgated and menaced by a cement truck an hour ago, that was fun. Another knuckle dragging redneck sucking on a fag weaving his 20 tonne truck in and out of suburban traffic 10-20 kph above the 60 limit to get to the same red light a few seconds faster. Arseholes are everywhere...

 

[Haakon]

A good thing to do occasionally when you are alone on quiet roads is to practice panic stops. It's easy to forget (and many people never know) how long it takes a car to stop. Particularly valuable practice if your car is sans ABS - things can go pear shaped pretty fast when it all locks up...

I was lucky to grow up in the bush, had a bush basher from age 13. Grew up on gravel and knowing how to control slides - saved my arse once when someone pulled out on me on the Calder Freeway and I put it onto the grass and a bit sideways at 100kph. Was also useful in catching a full opposite lock slide in a loaded Falcon Ute on the Westgate Bridge in the rain when the tie rod started undoing itself (Ford dealer hadn't done up the lock nut after an alignment...).

 

[binner]

My beef

Along with cigarettes, alcohol, American fast food, vehicles with a power to weight more than 100kw/tonne (or more than 150Nm/tonne), young blokes with licenses....

But yeah, I get your drift.



Melbourne's driver behaviour is currently the worst its been for years. Regular red light running, tailgating, texting on the move (not just the province of young people but there does appear to be a gender bias), last minute lane changing (usually without indicators or at best one flash), impatient, discourteous, and did I mention red light running.

Are other major centers the same?

Not that I really want to enter in on this discussion but like the above there^^^^^. I have been driving brissie to tugun lately quiet a bit thRough the week and I am astounded by the amount of woman P platers that are exceeding the speed limit easily by 20clicks or more. In brissie I also now see soooomany people running actual RED lights, seriously the other afternoon I came to a complete stop on a red light on the building line and faaaark me if a car didn't blast past me on red, I couldn't believe it just happened and then thought what if that was me in my car turning onto the street that the driver just ran. I'd be nailed!.

I think some of the speeding is partly to do with new cars that once on the highway are super quiet n smooth and you don't feel like you are going over 110 but jump in an old eh, val, vw like I have and then power down the highway doing 110 or over then you DO hear, feel, taste the speed. It's hard to explain in words but I know when I'm in a new car on the highway I tend to speed with out realising but in my kombi I am more aware and know my speed needs to be checked regularly. Well it can go quiet quick but that's for track days eace:



As you were......lane:

 

[wesdadude]

I think some of the speeding is partly to do with new cars that once on the highway are super quiet n smooth and you don't feel like you are going over 110 but jump in an old eh, val, vw like I have and then power down the highway doing 110 or over then you DO hear, feel, taste the speed. It's hard to explain in words but I know when I'm in a new car on the highway I tend to speed with out realising but in my kombi I am more aware and know my speed needs to be checked regularly.

It is quite easy to not feel your true speed. After coming off a highway or freeway it's so easy to blast around slower roads because your speed perception changes so much. Letting down your windows a bit and feeling and hearing the buffeting of the air is a great way to re-orientate yourself.

 

[pharmaboy]

Melbourne's driver behaviour is currently the worst its been for years. Regular red light running, tailgating, texting on the move (not just the province of young people but there does appear to be a gender bias), last minute lane changing (usually without indicators or at best one flash), impatient, discourteous, and did I mention red light running.

Are other major centers the same?

Call me crazy, but you could blame all the smegin' speed cameras for that. Same with red lights - I reckon I see more r light running these days - people look, see no camera and then go their hardest .

I firmly believe if you treat people like idiots they will indeed act like idiots.

 

[redbruce]

Call me crazy, but you could blame all the smegin' speed cameras for that. Same with red lights - I reckon I see more r light running these days - people look, see no camera and then go their hardest .

I firmly believe if you treat people like idiots they will indeed act like idiots.

A very long bow to draw.

Idiots are idiots. They need neither excuses, nor encouragement to act to intrinsic type.

 

[wesdadude]

Call me crazy,

All too happy to.
You want to blame cameras for the actions people take when they're not present? Is that your argument?

 

[Skydome]

Speed cameras are mostly used for revenue raising nowadays anyway.

Perfect example of this, is there'll be a fixed speed camera going up on the bridge where I live.

Guess what?

It's going to be placed in an area where it drops from 110 kph to 80kph and in my six years or so of living here, there's never been a crash on that bridge, despite a lot of people speeding through that section, so safety it is not for in this case.

 

[hazza6542]

Yesterday peaked the worst driving I've seen. Learner driver on main road through Penrith, I left her plenty of space, people getting up my arse when I was learning freaked me out so I gave her that space. Mum's in the passenger seat, sister in the back. She takes off, must have been manual the car was struggling but she never stalled, then busts out her phone and starts texting/facebook whatever it was! Couldn't believe it, Mum didn't care.

Gets better.

Traffic is moving, no red lights. Suddenly she comes to a stop in the right lane, p plater in left lane stops next to them and the mum in the L car leans out, so does the p plater and say hi to each other and have a chat in the middle of the busiest road in Penrith! She must have told the learner to stop so they could just say hi, couldn't get over that one. Guy next to me just looked over with the same shocked look on his face, gave them a honk and traffic got moving again.

 

[hifiandmtb]

^^^ This is the sh!t that should be getting us irate...not doing 10km/h over the bloody limit!

 

[redbruce]

Speed cameras are mostly used for revenue raising nowadays anyway.

Perfect example of this, is there'll be a fixed speed camera going up on the bridge where I live.

Guess what?

It's going to be placed in an area where it drops from 110 kph to 80kph and in my six years or so of living here, there's never been a crash on that bridge, despite a lot of people speeding through that section, so safety it is not for in this case.

The principle argument for speed enforcement is attitude change. Attitude affects all aspects of road behaviour, not just speeding (more particularly the conscious decision to break the law (road rules) when it suits). Some overt installations are for accute management (eg black spot deployment) and others for chronic management (eg your bridge example, at least in the absence of accident risk statistics) that affect the whole road network.

^^^ This is the sh!t that should be getting us irate...not doing 10km/h over the bloody limit!

It does, and is why the fine and demerit points associated with mobile phone use (once caught) is significantly higher than the 10kph over fine (4 demerit points and a $443 fine in Victoria). Similarly the penalty for "hooning" was ramped up in a lack of behaviour change and over 0.1 BAC is about to significantly ramp up for the same reasons. Education doesn't work on some people, a stronger driver of change is required is. hefty fines, removal of license, vehicle impounding, etc.

In the example Hazza gives one has to wonder about the supervising driver. Her habits will become the norm for the learner.

Again, its all about attitude.

 

[hifiandmtb]

"...The principle argument for speed enforcement is attitude change..."

Where did you get this information from?

 

[redbruce]

"...The principle argument for speed enforcement is attitude change..."

Where did you get this information from?

I should have probably more correctly put "a" principle argument.....

http://www.monash.edu.au/miri/research/reports/papers/2008-cameron-speed.pdf

It has also been put by Police justifying the enforcement program a number of times in the media.

Its not new and its not unique to Australia. There are numerous well documented studies around the world on it.

The scientific evidence certainly flies in the face of arguments such as "Call me crazy, but you could blame all the smegin' speed cameras for that. Same with red lights - I reckon I see more r light running these days - people look, see no camera and then go their hardest . I firmly believe if you treat people like idiots they will indeed act like idiots."

It also dispels the myth that speed enforcement is as simple as "Speed cameras are mostly used for revenue raising nowadays anyway."

Similarly, comments such as: "The way everyone here just follows the party line is incredible. In the UK they "necklace" the speed cameras."

There is no doubting it raises revenue, but that's a consequence of the driver used, not the end it itself. It's hard to see why it shouldn't be self financing. Community pays enough for road trauma as it is.

I should probably point out I'm far from a saint in this regard myself, especially when I was young. Getting older, wiser and having kids (might not all be mutually exclusive) has certainly changed my view, and I'm more conscious of trying harder to comply. However despite a concerted effort over the last few years (when I had a few points), I have still have 1 point on my licence (all recent points were for less than 10 and during the zero tolerance period in Vic) having set myself a target to have no points by next year (when the last one ends its 3 years expiry).

Between private and work, I do around 50,000km annually.

I know the rules and if I break them and get caught, well that's my fault, and my fault only. Similarly my kids (both now drivers).

 

[casnell]

Problem is how you define speeding. The Yea to Molesworth rd has been 100 for ever, with very few problems. A month back the local policemans wife ran off the road and two people died - now its 80 the whole way before anyone's even had a chance to review why she ran off the road (fell asleep id bet).

There is no way that road should be 80 from a safety point of view, just a pure knee-jerk reaction . A month ago do 80 and you're "impeding traffic flow" and now if you did 100 its almost "impound the car time". Its a road that nobody intrinsically feels 80 is appropriate whilst driving on, and so the government will rake it in.

A month ago 90 was too slow, and suddenly its speeding? How is this reasonable?

Christmas Hills road is another, used to be 100 and now its wider,straighter, got Armco on the bends, wider sealed shoulders and what do they do? Drop it to 80 and have a constant speed camera lurking. How is this about safety? Even more cynical is the sign saying "dangerous road, 456 motorcycle crashes lately" or some such. The exact same sign's been there for about 20 years!

No way its about safety..

If you want to define speeding as "over the speed limit" there's a lot of people speeding. If you want to define speeding as "going too fast for the conditions/traffic/car/weather" there's actually very little .

And by the way, I've never lost a point in 38 years driving so I'm not a bitter and twisted recidivist speeder, I really believe this whole emphasis on speeding is so wrong. People should be educated on driving as a skill, not a right.

 

[redbruce]

Problem is how you define speeding. The Yea to Molesworth rd has been 100 for ever, with very few problems. A month back the local policemans wife ran off the road and two people died - now its 80 the whole way before anyone's even had a chance to review why she ran off the road (fell asleep id bet).

There is no way that road should be 80 from a safety point of view, just a pure knee-jerk reaction . A month ago do 80 and you're "impeding traffic flow" and now if you did 100 its almost "impound the car time". Its a road that nobody intrinsically feels 80 is appropriate whilst driving on, and so the government will rake it in.

A month ago 90 was too slow, and suddenly its speeding? How is this reasonable?

Christmas Hills road is another, used to be 100 and now its wider,straighter, got Armco on the bends, wider sealed shoulders and what do they do? Drop it to 80 and have a constant speed camera lurking. How is this about safety? Even more cynical is the sign saying "dangerous road, 456 motorcycle crashes lately" or some such. The exact same sign's been there for about 20 years!

No way its about safety..

If you want to define speeding as "over the speed limit" there's a lot of people speeding. If you want to define speeding as "going too fast for the conditions/traffic/car/weather" there's actually very little .

And by the way, I've never lost a point in 38 years driving so I'm not a bitter and twisted recidivist speeder, I really believe this whole emphasis on speeding is so wrong. People should be educated on driving as a skill, not a right.

I agree with much of this, especially the bit about driving skill. Irrespective of the limit, the road code requires all to travel according to conditions, just not above the limit.

Those that determine the speed limit for a given section of road are different to those who enforce it. Inconsistencies in the approach to setting limits don' the situation. There also appears little rational thought applied to sections where there are multiple speed limit changes within a short section of road, all of which appears to have the same risk factors present. Those responsible for setting local limits often are inconsistent with the approach used by state authorities, who in tern are often inconsistent with other National jurisdictions (although that is improving with harmonization of respective legislation). Irrespective, there has to be a common basis for management, and it needs to handle the lowest common denominator. The notion of "I'll interpret compliance with the law as I see fit" has significant risks when applied unilaterally across a society.

That Monash study answers a few of the questions you raise. Whether you like the evidence is another matter.