Speeding is bad, mmkay?

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
I should have probably more correctly put "a" principle argument.....

http://www.monash.edu.au/miri/research/reports/papers/2008-cameron-speed.pdf

It has also been put by Police justifying the enforcement program a number of times in the media.

Its not new and its not unique to Australia. There are numerous well documented studies around the world on it.

The scientific evidence certainly flies in the face of arguments such as "Call me crazy, but you could blame all the smegin' speed cameras for that. Same with red lights - I reckon I see more r light running these days - people look, see no camera and then go their hardest . I firmly believe if you treat people like idiots they will indeed act like idiots."

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That paper is a bunch of assumptions applied to a situation , it isn't science .

Second, my quote above, generally agrees with the statistical analysis, and that is a man in a highway patrol is more effective at moderating behaviour generally than a camera at the side of the road - because it modifies many behaviours not just a simple speed check.

Further, if you were familiar with even Monashs work in is area, they frequently point out that enforcement needs to be fluid and change so it's not predictable. A fixed camera is often associated with traffic slowing then speeding up, in the same way red light cameras as a highly visible enforcement tool, cause much earlier braking at sets of lights where they are setup, and a non effect at other sets of lights ( ok, maybe a small one)

I do standby, that you reap what you sow.

Fortunately I live in NSW, that is still resisting covert cameras - mainly in the interest of being seen to be fair, and to remove the revenue raising mantra
 

MARKL

Eats Squid
I agree with much of what you have said but
...It also dispels the myth that speed enforcement is as simple as "Speed cameras are mostly used for revenue raising nowadays anyway."...
Where the pollies and government lose this argument is that when speed cameras were introduced (and when they increase the numbers of speed cameras) the justification has always been around 'safety/accidents/locate in known black spots...'.

Based on the argument above we are probably all aware of areas that have been known black spots for 10, 15+ years. And yet the majority of these appear to have had nothing done to increase safety other than have a camera and sign installed. Now if they are truly black spots and we are truly about road safety shouldn't there have been some road/traffic engineering done to increase safety? It is this lack of action beyond the easy install a camera and she will be right that makes people cynical.
 

redbruce

Eats Squid
That paper is a bunch of assumptions applied to a situation , it isn't science .

Further, if you were familiar with even Monashs work in is area, they frequently point out that enforcement needs to be fluid and change so it's not predictable. A fixed camera is often associated with traffic slowing then speeding up, in the same way red light cameras as a highly visible enforcement tool, cause much earlier braking at sets of lights where they are setup, and a non effect at other sets of lights ( ok, maybe a small one)
An easy (and cheap) shot to make. Unlike your statement, that paper uses scientific principles (evidence to underpin assumptions and theories and references to relevant published literature) and Monash Uni Crash center publish their research in mainstream peer reviewed journals. That's how research works. They have form and credentials internationally in this space. You on the other hand have not provided one shred of evidence to support your theory, ie it is just assumption applied to an observation.



As it turns out I am relatively familiar with the Uni's work in this area, having been involved in their research (as a part of a study object cohort) into motorcycle rider behaviour, culture and its relationship to crash statistics. A fellow I went through Uni with (he did Engineering as opposed to me in Science) was also a senior researcher there for a while before he went to Europe to work and we had regular discussions on road related research up until he left.

Managing road user behaviour is complex. The solutions toolbox needs to recognize and account for that.

However I'll take evidenced based approach over self opinion based one any day. That said, properly designed evaluation is then important as proof of the pudding.

I agree with much of what you have said but

Where the pollies and government lose this argument is that when speed cameras were introduced (and when they increase the numbers of speed cameras) the justification has always been around 'safety/accidents/locate in known black spots...'.

Based on the argument above we are probably all aware of areas that have been known black spots for 10, 15+ years. And yet the majority of these appear to have had nothing done to increase safety other than have a camera and sign installed. Now if they are truly black spots and we are truly about road safety shouldn't there have been some road/traffic engineering done to increase safety? It is this lack of action beyond the easy install a camera and she will be right that makes people cynical.
Yes. Black spot management also requires a range of solutions. Some engineering (http://investment.infrastructure.gov.au/funding/blackspots/nominate_black_spots.aspx), some social education (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/t...s-for-crashes-in-victoria-20140528-394o9.html) and there does seem to be more than can be addressed in a timely manner.

As a motorcyclist, I have seen a number of motorcycle black spots addressed in my local and extended area. In the last 5 years we have had road widened, corners re radiused and surface improved, safety barriers installed (unfortunately some of those have been the cheap tensioned wire cable type), local community groups have been set up and run structured training rides through the area and of course the obligatory motorcycle statistic signs. The infrastructure improvements have made it better for sensible motorists and riders, but the nobs just went faster, so now the speed limit has been reduced (100->80 and 80-> 60), although the increasing number of cyclists making use of the wider and safer road probably influenced that as well. Overall there has been reduction in both motorcycle and cyclist statistics (despite increased volume), but because several things we done at the same time, its hard to attribute proportional cause and effect.
 
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pharmaboy

Eats Squid
The Kloeden study that claims your risk is quadrupled for 5kmh has not been reproduced. It's an overstatement of the risk and has led Victoria particularly down the hidden speed cam route.

My main problem with cameras is they tend to book people for small infractions, they even book people who are travelling with the average traffic speed, which is likely the safest speed.

Statistically Australia is not doing fantastically well over the last decade for traffic fatalities, and overall fatalities are declining across the western world regardless and independent of their speed kills mantras.
 

Skydome

What's invisible and smells like hay?
The principle argument for speed enforcement is attitude change. Attitude affects all aspects of road behaviour, not just speeding (more particularly the conscious decision to break the law (road rules) when it suits). Some overt installations are for accute management (eg black spot deployment) and others for chronic management (eg your bridge example, at least in the absence of accident risk statistics) that affect the whole road network.




Again, its all about attitude.

A better way to change peoples attitudes is to have more marked patrol cars out on the road, not more speed cameras.

Another way to get more people (Me Including on the Police's side for speed limit enforcement) Is to have a review of current speed limits and allow residents to have in put on them, and than, after that, remove the speed limit on highways to begin with, than monitor the speed people travel at, than re-implement the speed limit at the 85th percentile to get to a better community understanding/support of speed limit enforcement.

Some areas of highway really have too low of a speed limit. I'll admit to this, I've gone as fast 180kph, but that was fucking sketchy, so would never do that again, but a more sensible overall highway speed limit would be about 120-130 for most roads, maybe 140 for the better roads.
 

casnell

Likes Bikes and Dirt
A better way to change peoples attitudes is to have more marked patrol cars out on the road, not more speed cameras.

Another way to get more people (Me Including on the Police's side for speed limit enforcement) Is to have a review of current speed limits and allow residents to have in put on them, and than, after that, remove the speed limit on highways to begin with, than monitor the speed people travel at, than re-implement the speed limit at the 85th percentile to get to a better community understanding/support of speed limit enforcement.

Some areas of highway really have too low of a speed limit. I'll admit to this, I've gone as fast 180kph, but that was fucking sketchy, so would never do that again, but a more sensible overall highway speed limit would be about 120-130 for most roads, maybe 140 for the better roads.
Driven in Europe? Many freeways have the fast lane doing 200+, not just the autobahns. Makes a mockery of 110 being the highest possible safe speed.
 

Haakon

has an accommodating arse
I dont agree - I have plenty of time on Autobahns, and on US Interstates and I dont beleive there are hardly any roads in Australia that should be rated more than 120kph.

Also, driving standards will have to be raised markedly as well.
 

Skydome

What's invisible and smells like hay?
Driven in Europe? Many freeways have the fast lane doing 200+, not just the autobahns. Makes a mockery of 110 being the highest possible safe speed.
Nah, but I'd love to do the de-restricted sections of the autobahn one of these days.

Doing 180 on our roads, you fast realise how many dips there are on them, pretty much a dimp/bump every 10-15 meters or so, maybe less in some sections of road.
 

Skydome

What's invisible and smells like hay?
I dont agree - I have plenty of time on Autobahns, and on US Interstates and I dont beleive there are hardly any roads in Australia that should be rated more than 120kph.

Also, driving standards will have to be raised markedly as well.
Really?

I've done 130 140 multiple times on the highway near me, and it wasn't sketchy at all, in fact, 130 was a good cruising speed.

It only gets sketchy once you start getting around 160-180.

Having said that, though, there are definitely roads that aren't rated for 110 or even 100, but others that would be quite comfortable for 130.
 
Really?

I've done 130 140 multiple times on the highway near me, and it wasn't sketchy at all, in fact, 130 was a good cruising speed.

It only gets sketchy once you start getting around 160-180.

Having said that, though, there are definitely roads that aren't rated for 110 or even 100, but others that would be quite comfortable for 130.
You sure bout that ?

I mean 110km/h has be scientifically proven to be a safe speed, anything more means instant death.

Or is 110km/h an arbitrary number, perhaps?
 

Haakon

has an accommodating arse
120 ish, a very few maybe higher, most a LOT lower.

It's not just the roads (width, barriers, lines if sight) that don't support higher speeds (with an appropriate margin for error), it's the fucking woeful average standard of driving...
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
120 ish, a very few maybe higher, most a LOT lower.

It's not just the roads (width, barriers, lines if sight) that don't support higher speeds (with an appropriate margin for error), it's the fucking woeful average standard of driving...
Fuck me, this country needs to be more confident - why the hell would you think an Aussie driver is worse than every other country in this world? ( with the sole exception perhaps of the Germans - they'd just different)

Drivers are shit the world over, not because they are, but because everyone thinks they are great - nothing breeds hubris more than a discussion about driving skills
 

Skydome

What's invisible and smells like hay?
120 ish, a very few maybe higher, most a LOT lower.

It's not just the roads (width, barriers, lines if sight) that don't support higher speeds (with an appropriate margin for error), it's the fucking woeful average standard of driving...

Actually, a majority of the highways would easily support 130 KPH speeds.

Some of the longer highways would probably support 140 KPH limits.
 

hazza6542

Eats Squid
My old taught me how to control a car on fun roads in good conditions. That actually really helped, I've had a couple hairy situations driving, just small things like getting a bit sideways in the rain but having that knowledge straight away of how to control the car is a great thing to have. I said it paaages ago (ahhhh puns..) but after seeing people close their eyes and let go of the wheel when they get in a bad situation we really need some sort of mandatory advanced driving courses for new drivers.

Don't assume I go drifting in the rain on purpose, it's an old auto Subaru. It could only drift in the rain if there was enough rain to actually make it float and drift away.

EDIT: This video is cool anyway, anything with Chris Harris will be good, but the first part of it is kinda relevant to how we could change here.

[video=youtube;HjJ6N4IeUMY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjJ6N4IeUMY[/video]
 
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casnell

Likes Bikes and Dirt
My old taught me how to control a car on fun roads in good conditions. That actually really helped, I've had a couple hairy situations driving, just small things like getting a bit sideways in the rain but having that knowledge straight away of how to control the car is a great thing to have. I said it paaages ago (ahhhh puns..) but after seeing people close their eyes and let go of the wheel when they get in a bad situation we really need some sort of mandatory advanced driving courses for new drivers.

Don't assume I go drifting in the rain on purpose, it's an old auto Subaru. It could only drift in the rain if there was enough rain to actually make it float and drift away.
Agree wholeheartedly. I have my 14 yo doing motorkhanas to learn car control.
 
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