Straya Day

Spike-X

Grumpy Old Sarah
Are you actually taking the piss? All we do is tip toe around them to try to make them happy, I think a week in Alice Springs or somewhere similar would do you the world of good and perhaps open your eyes to the fact that the way they are treated comes down to the way they act. There's a very good reason why there are zero tolerance alcohol free aboriginal communities....
Yep, we've spent 200 years grinding them down into the dirt, then we criticise them for being dirty. And people have the nerve to whinge about "special treatment". It makes me fucking sick.
 

harmonix1234

Eats Squid
Yep, we've spent 200 years grinding them down into the dirt, then we criticise them for being dirty. And people have the nerve to whinge about "special treatment". It makes me fucking sick.
Agree.
Last year, I spent a year in Nowra NSW. Huge aboriginal community. A real eye opener.
I have never seen such racism and hate towards them.
Such a divide, and such a long way to go.

Just because Kevin makes a Sorry speech we are supposed to think everything is peachy?
I challenge anyone to and spend a year in Nowra and still tell me we treat our Aboriginals fairly.
 

outtacontrol

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Yep, we've spent 200 years grinding them down into the dirt, then we criticise them for being dirty. And people have the nerve to whinge about "special treatment". It makes me fucking sick.
Your dreaming buddy. I guessing living in Geelong doesn't really qualify you to know what goes on in communities where mum and dad are always drunk and consider government payments their right. The kids run riot stealing and vandalising stuff, all the while knowing they are untouchable.

I couldn't give a shit if people are dirty, I just want them to act like civilised human beings...
 

Spike-X

Grumpy Old Sarah
Your dreaming buddy. I guessing living in Geelong doesn't really qualify you to know what goes on in communities where mum and dad are always drunk and consider government payments their right. The kids run riot stealing and vandalising stuff, all the while knowing they are untouchable.

I couldn't give a shit if people are dirty, I just want them to act like civilised human beings...
Maybe we should've spent more time teaching them to do that, perhaps by acting in a civilised fashion towards them, rather than trying to drive them over cliffs, or breed them out of existence. And I was using 'dirty' as a metaphor.

Also, it's "you're".
 
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outtacontrol

Likes Bikes and Dirt
And I was using 'dirty' as a metaphor.
So was I.

Until people (both black and white) can accept that things happened that were not right in our past (as has every other country at some stage) and want to move forward as one nation, things will never change.
 

Pete J

loves his dog
Decent healthcare, no one's tried to yet (successfully) invade us...general isolation geographically can be a plus (granted, also a minus). People are generally quite friendly, we have an absolutely amazing variety of beautiful land features (the reef, mountains, deserts, beaches to name a few), and we're not so overpopulated that we can still move around and explore so much more of this country. Great education outcomes for majority of the population, lowest unemployment rates of most first world countries right now and hey- Farkin came from here, can't be all bad!
Happy Australia Day to all, no matter where you came from!
Great post! I agree 100%.
Having lived outside of Australia for 8 years now, i am becoming more homesick by the day.
Climate is a huge factor in quality of life and this makes living down under better than pretty much anywhere in Europe.
No matter how your attitudes towards weather go, living somewhere dreary will make you feel the same (at some point).
We have at least 6 months out of each year that are usually wet, cold, and extremely grey due to a lack of sunshine.
Pretty much everyone spends most of the winter waiting for the spring and summer seasons.
All of this waiting kind of makes you feel like this time of year is going to waste...
Sure, htfu and get outside i hear you say. Well, i have and i do.
It's just not as much fun when you are in pain from the freezing cold.
In Australia, you can pretty much choose what kind of weather you want to deal with (most of the time) and not face any language/social/economic problems.
I am extremely proud of our country and will be a very happy chappy when the day comes to move back!
 

vtwiz

Likes Dirt
Great post! I agree 100%.
Having lived outside of Australia for 8 years now, i am becoming more homesick by the day.
Climate is a huge factor in quality of life and this makes living down under better than pretty much anywhere in Europe.
No matter how your attitudes towards weather go, living somewhere dreary will make you feel the same (at some point).
We have at least 6 months out of each year that are usually wet, cold, and extremely grey due to a lack of sunshine.
Pretty much everyone spends most of the winter waiting for the spring and summer seasons.
All of this waiting kind of makes you feel like this time of year is going to waste...
Sure, htfu and get outside i hear you say. Well, i have and i do.
It's just not as much fun when you are in pain from the freezing cold.
In Australia, you can pretty much choose what kind of weather you want to deal with (most of the time) and not face any language/social/economic problems.
I am extremely proud of our country and will be a very happy chappy when the day comes to move back!
I think you are thankful of Australia's weather rather than proud of it.

It terms of language/social and economic problems......... the 'language problem' does not apply to you because you are from here and speak english but for anyone from Finland or any other county then there are language problems. Social and economic....... we have those issues too. Not to the same extent as some countries but they are definitely there.

I lived overseas for ten years. Being Australian, I was thankful I had the opportunity and right to come back whenever I wanted. Thankful, not proud.
 
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MARKL

Eats Squid
Your dreaming buddy. I guessing living in Geelong doesn't really qualify you to know what goes on in communities where mum and dad are always drunk and consider government payments their right. The kids run riot stealing and vandalising stuff, all the while knowing they are untouchable.

I couldn't give a shit if people are dirty, I just want them to act like civilised human beings...

In my experience (which is considerable on these issues) skin colour is not an indicator of these outcomes
 

Xavo.au

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Until people (both black and white) can accept that things happened that were not right in our past (as has every other country at some stage) and want to move forward as one nation, things will never change.
This is how I see things also.

I realise that things happened before I arrived on the scene. Whilst there's some things that occurred within living memory. What can I (and MY generation do about these things)? I actually do have several Indigenous friends, from North QLD Indigenous communities and also the Torres Strait Islands. They get A LOT of benefits; for better or for worse. Some are luckier than I am, but still receive crazy amounts of compensation or payments or whatever it's called.

I'm happy to do stuff to bridge the divide, I don't like racism and I try my hardest to not be racist. But I also feel that it's a two way street, and some (on both sides) aren't willing to walk down it - they'd prefer to drive down knocking over letterboxes and stealing mail along the way.

I'm proud to be Australian. I like the place, I like my friends, it feels good to have a day off to celebrate the country. Even with all it's flaws...
 

Pete J

loves his dog
I think you are thankful of Australia's weather rather than proud of it.

It terms of language/social and economic problems......... the 'language problem' does not apply to you because you are from here and speak english but for anyone from Finland or any other county then there are language problems. Social and economic....... we have those issues too. Not to the same extent as some countries but they are definitely there.

I lived overseas for ten years. Being Australian, I was thankful I had the opportunity and right to come back whenever I wanted. Thankful, not proud.
I didn't mean to say that i was proud of the weather, i just threw that in at the end because that is how i feel about our country.
Yes, i am thankful for the weather, which is why i brought it up.
Language barriers change quite regularly in Europe, in the space of 1000km's you will come across a number of different languages.
This would make choosing a more suitable climate much more difficult for the average European.
The situation is much different for the average Australian, get my drift. :)
Social and economic problems are everywhere i know, they just increase if you were to move from say Tallinn to Helsinki (less than 100kms).
This is what i was trying to get across.
 

The Duckmeister

Has stumpy thumbs, Speciaized are so weird
We can't change history, but if we've got any sense we can learn from it and do our best to ensure that the same mistakes aren't repeated.

Let's get back to basics shall we. For better or worse, the English established the settlement that led to the formation of this society that we call home. If it wasn't them, it probably would have been the French, 'cos they were poking about the place too. Anyway, given that we started as the dumping ground for the arse-end of English society and evolved into a generally quite decent bunch, and "grew up" without a war to force the point I think is something worth celebrating.
 

indica

can sometimes count all the way up to 3
Your dreaming buddy..
Hey. I am at the sticky end of this shit CAUSED by prior governments. The people that chose to stick 4 or 5 warring clans into a town and expect things to work without support or education are to blame. That was doomed to fail and the population in the local jail is a fair indicator of that.
 

Spike-X

Grumpy Old Sarah
In my experience (which is considerable on these issues) skin colour is not an indicator of these outcomes
You're saying aboriginal people didn't invent alcoholism and child neglect? What a load of lefty do-gooder politically correct rubbish!
 

MARKL

Eats Squid
You're saying aboriginal people didn't invent alcoholism and child neglect? What a load of lefty do-gooder politically correct rubbish!
Happy to be labelled a lefty (not the fork though), do-gooder I can deal with but call me politically correct again and we will have serious issues:yell:


I am not sure I am interpreting your statement correctly cause it seems to be taking a different tangent to your previous posts but ...

* I didn't say, however I agree that alcoholism and child neglect was NOT invented by aboriginal people;
* I have seen the effects of alcoholism and child neglect in many non-aboriginal communities and the effect is just as devastating and there are many 'white' communities with similar issues - we just don't label it the same way.
 

Elbo

pesky scooter kids git off ma lawn
As my professor in Indigenous Studies once said: bad history between black and white in Australia, but a shared history nonetheless, and that's where we need to start rebuilding. I gave up on indigenous studies at uni because a lot of the lecturers were more concerned with self-flagellation; every single class was an exercise in white guilt, and it seems a lot of people are more concerned with this as well. I'm more interested in how we can make something right out of a less than perfect past.

The questions I originally posed were that of presenting a querie as to how we view culture, is this what you/we celebrate, and how is culture defined. And, is patriotism in the eye of the beholder?
From your posts harmonix, and even what you've said about what you're grateful for, living on this particular part of earth, I can tell you have a good idea of what culture is. I agree with you in saying that culture is borrowed, adapted, re-interpreted, millions of times over. Every person puts their own spin on something and it gets added to the big pool of experiences. So whats so special about it? Why celebrate it?

The common view of culture is that its just art, or food, dance or stories particular to a certain group of people. But it encompasses much more than that; its everything from group formation, to how we have learnt to use our brains and bodies. Anything that humans do for any reason must involve culture because culture is what separates us from other animals. Its the social web of relationships, values and norms we build our lives upon. Culture has shaped everything about everyone, starting with childhood, the process of being socialised into the values and norms a particular society holds (this is why we laugh at children doing something against the norms of society while they learn, but then they reach a point where we no longer accept their ignorance.)

On Nationalism and Patriotism. Both these phenomenons are created and exist only in the mind (unfortunately the often have physical consequences.) In fact, if you think about it, Australia doesn't really exist outside the minds of people, it is an imagined community. The concept of chronological time, the past, future and present, combined with things such as national holidays (especially ones focussing on nationalism, i.e. Australia Day), Newspapers and 6pm News bulletins, help maintain the idea that a broader community of Australians exists, all experiencing Australia in sync. Just as you experience no physical difference between standing in NSW and walking 1m North into QLD; our internal borders are just as imagined as our external borders.

Let me ask this question, how many Australians do you actually know or how many have you come into contact with over your lifetime? 1000? 2000? Maybe you've interacted with 5000 individual people over your lifetime… out of 20,000,000 people… and you're drawing conclusions about the culture of an entire country based on this? How do you know the rest of the Australians think like you, or imagine the same Australia you do? You don't, and this is why we have to imagine a community in order to operate in that community.

Nationalism is interesting, because its maintained through creating symbols that become proxies for the Nation. Flags, language, national anthems, borders, border control, law, military, assigning gender to the nation (we'll protect her), encouraging patriotism, etc.

Compare nationalism in Norway and Sweden to Australia. (Correct me if I'm wrong) but in Norway and Sweden, in villages along the border, the dialects of language are mutually intelligible, a Norwegian could talk to a Swede and both would understand each other (less so further away from the border) but ask any Norwegian if they are speaking Swedish, and they will say no way, and vice versa with the Swedes. Norwegians and Swedes have very easily identifiable differences they latch onto to claim their own nationalism or patriotism.
In Australia we are so similar, that we go looking for differences, and find them in skin colour, accent, place of birth, how many generations our families have been here, whether we have convict blood, being true blue, etc, etc.
The point is, that in places where people are more similar than they'd like to think, greater tension arises as people scramble to claim they are what it means to a be a true citizen of X country.

Perhaps you've become aware of it because your experience doesn't quite match the cultural rhetoric anymore. In any case, its like seeing the Matrix, it can't be unseen. And like the Matrix, most people will never see it, or think about it. The good thing is, you're not forced to celebrate what you don't feel like celebrating. Can you imagine living in North Korea, and being aware of the degree of control taken to maintain the imagined community. That would be cognitive dissonance hell. I'm glad that Australia (whatever that is) isn't like that, and that's one thing to be grateful for.

Sorry if all this anthropology sounds wishy-washy, but I hope it makes sense and helps answer some of your questions.
 

PINT of Stella. mate!

Many, many Scotches
WHen we decide what the hell is referred to by the phrase 'footy' or what we'll call a standard measure of drink (or what to call a box of 24 cans), then we can go on about a singularly identifiable Australian culture!
 

harmonix1234

Eats Squid
As my professor in Indigenous Studies once said: bad history between black and white in Australia, but a shared history nonetheless, and that's where we need to start rebuilding. I gave up on indigenous studies at uni because a lot of the lecturers were more concerned with self-flagellation; every single class was an exercise in white guilt, and it seems a lot of people are more concerned with this as well. I'm more interested in how we can make something right out of a less than perfect past.


From your posts harmonix, and even what you've said about what you're grateful for, living on this particular part of earth, I can tell you have a good idea of what culture is. I agree with you in saying that culture is borrowed, adapted, re-interpreted, millions of times over. Every person puts their own spin on something and it gets added to the big pool of experiences. So whats so special about it? Why celebrate it?

The common view of culture is that its just art, or food, dance or stories particular to a certain group of people. But it encompasses much more than that; its everything from group formation, to how we have learnt to use our brains and bodies. Anything that humans do for any reason must involve culture because culture is what separates us from other animals. Its the social web of relationships, values and norms we build our lives upon. Culture has shaped everything about everyone, starting with childhood, the process of being socialised into the values and norms a particular society holds (this is why we laugh at children doing something against the norms of society while they learn, but then they reach a point where we no longer accept their ignorance.)

On Nationalism and Patriotism. Both these phenomenons are created and exist only in the mind (unfortunately the often have physical consequences.) In fact, if you think about it, Australia doesn't really exist outside the minds of people, it is an imagined community. The concept of chronological time, the past, future and present, combined with things such as national holidays (especially ones focussing on nationalism, i.e. Australia Day), Newspapers and 6pm News bulletins, help maintain the idea that a broader community of Australians exists, all experiencing Australia in sync. Just as you experience no physical difference between standing in NSW and walking 1m North into QLD; our internal borders are just as imagined as our external borders.

Let me ask this question, how many Australians do you actually know or how many have you come into contact with over your lifetime? 1000? 2000? Maybe you've interacted with 5000 individual people over your lifetime… out of 20,000,000 people… and you're drawing conclusions about the culture of an entire country based on this? How do you know the rest of the Australians think like you, or imagine the same Australia you do? You don't, and this is why we have to imagine a community in order to operate in that community.

Nationalism is interesting, because its maintained through creating symbols that become proxies for the Nation. Flags, language, national anthems, borders, border control, law, military, assigning gender to the nation (we'll protect her), encouraging patriotism, etc.

Compare nationalism in Norway and Sweden to Australia. (Correct me if I'm wrong) but in Norway and Sweden, in villages along the border, the dialects of language are mutually intelligible, a Norwegian could talk to a Swede and both would understand each other (less so further away from the border) but ask any Norwegian if they are speaking Swedish, and they will say no way, and vice versa with the Swedes. Norwegians and Swedes have very easily identifiable differences they latch onto to claim their own nationalism or patriotism.
In Australia we are so similar, that we go looking for differences, and find them in skin colour, accent, place of birth, how many generations our families have been here, whether we have convict blood, being true blue, etc, etc.
The point is, that in places where people are more similar than they'd like to think, greater tension arises as people scramble to claim they are what it means to a be a true citizen of X country.

Perhaps you've become aware of it because your experience doesn't quite match the cultural rhetoric anymore. In any case, its like seeing the Matrix, it can't be unseen. And like the Matrix, most people will never see it, or think about it. The good thing is, you're not forced to celebrate what you don't feel like celebrating. Can you imagine living in North Korea, and being aware of the degree of control taken to maintain the imagined community. That would be cognitive dissonance hell. I'm glad that Australia (whatever that is) isn't like that, and that's one thing to be grateful for.

Sorry if all this anthropology sounds wishy-washy, but I hope it makes sense and helps answer some of your questions.
Thanks Elbo. Enlightening and intelligent reply.
I value your contributions. So good I read it twice.
Thanks.
 
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