Terrorism: Paris, Syria, Turkey, Belgium, Florida......

Boom King said:
Have to agree. We will have isolated incidents of radicals making various statements but this type of orchestrated activity, occurring simultaneously over multiple locations, is unlikely in Aus.
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We are still a target with our participation in a war in the Middle East, and this hasn't been a thorough topic of discussion in Australia. Are we numb from war?

Sure our gun laws, border control makes it harder for nut jobs, but Many fear it's a thin line. Very hard for a terrorism motivated nut job to obtain an ak47 and run rampant in a cba or shopping centre, but if they did it would be carnage.

The politics is very very messy, you could write a book and not cover everything.
 
Shutting of borders seems to have taken effect, this from Flightradar a few minutes ago:

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That single flight is a freight aircraft that left from Belgium.
 
link1896 said:
We are still a target with our participation in a war in the Middle East, and this hasn't been a thorough topic of discussion in Australia. Are we numb from war?

Sure our gun laws, border control makes it harder for nut jobs, but Many fear it's a thin line. Very hard for a terrorism motivated nut job to obtain an ak47 and run rampant in a cba or shopping centre, but if they did it would be carnage.

The politics is very very messy, you could write a book and not cover everything.
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I was actually making the same comment to my wife.

We are lucky because we are isolated here physically so it's almost impossible to access the sort of gear needed to cause this carnage.

Getting military grade weapons almost anywhere in Europe is alarmingly easy. Doesn't matter how strong the gun laws are if you can pop across the boarder and smuggle the gear in.

Terrible, terrible stuff.
 
Freediver said:
Yes seriously, the causes are pretty simple to understand. Read papers with both left and right leanings along with a few books on the history of the region.
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It's anything but simple and the view that western involvement is solely down to our thirst for oil appears to be a bit naive considering that oil prices are at historic lows due to oversupply and the whole Unconventional Extraction revolution (i.e Fracking, Shale Gas, Tar Sands etc).

g-fish said:
Because 1000 years of the west fighting the middle east has been overwhelmingly successful.

It's a not a question of religious extremism. These attacks are happening all over the world, regardless of religion, race or nationality. This year, men disillusioned from society have randomly killed innocent people they didn't know in America, Thailand, China, Africa, the middle East, Australia, almost everywhere. Religion fuels the violence, but the violence would occur irrespective of religion.

We're not fighting religious extremism, we're fighting alienation of a growing portion of society.. I think these men (and it is a uniquely male problem) are trying to find a place they belong.
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Pretty much spot on. In terms of methodology and success there does not appear to be much difference between the likes of IS and the new wave of Mexican drug gangs, most notably Los Zetas. These groups all share a common love for extreme violence and the use of social media to brag about their exploits.

Both IS and Los Zetas have managed to openly defy entire governments and armies and control vast areas in multiple countries using murder, kidnapping, extortion and trafficking (be it drugs, oil or people) as means of both control and income.

Despite the inherent risks involved in such activities, neither group appears to be short on volunteers either. Hell, they even share a mutual love of the Toyota Hilux so the only real difference is that one is using religious extremism as an excuse for their existence and a rallying cry for their supporters whereas the other is simply using poverty and the allure of power.
 
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POSM the price of oil is where it's at because the Saudis are producing flat out. The 2 reasons for the increase in production are to put the frackers and tar sand producers out of business by lowering the price below their cost of production while they are still carrying large debt. The other reason is the Saudi cash reserves are quickly diminishing and they are trying to move more oil to cover their crazy arsed expenses.
 
g-fish said:
It's a not a question of religious extremism. These attacks are happening all over the world, regardless of religion, race or nationality. This year, men disillusioned from society have randomly killed innocent people they didn't know in America, Thailand, China, Africa, the middle East, Australia, almost everywhere. Religion fuels the violence, but the violence would occur irrespective of religion.

.
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Terrorist attacks have a remarkable association with religion, and a particular one at that.

The idea that the violence would occur anyway, fatally misses the obvious facts. What extremist religion gives you, is not only the motivation, but the steadfast certainty, that you will go to a better place when you die, and and steadfast certainty that you are better than the infidels. The hate is merely a bonus

Purely political violence carries a fear of being caught and a fear of dying - these curtail these types of random violence quite a bit.

Edit - from a western perspective, there is also something inately terrifying about someone mad enough to kills themselves in the process
 
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Freediver said:
POSM the price of oil is where it's at because the Saudis are producing flat out. The 2 reasons for the increase in production are to put the frackers and tar sand producers out of business by lowering the price below their cost of production while they are still carrying large debt. The other reason is the Saudi cash reserves are quickly diminishing and they are trying to move more oil to cover their crazy arsed expenses.
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Gold plated rolls royces and war financing?
 
pharmaboy said:
Gold plated rolls royces and war financing?
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That and hiring foreigners to do everything for them. They still have massive cash reserves but at the rate they are spending it won't last much longer. The oil production is backfiring on them as the cheap prices haven't increased demand as they were hoping and it's a finite resource. Selling it cheap now instead of for more later is a stupid strategy.
 
When I get control of the world, I'm banning religion. All of them. Period. If you can't play nice together, none of you get any toys.

FFFS. Although of course these arseholes will just find some other excuse for being arseholes...

Way too many monkeys on this planet, time for a serious cull.
 
Freediver said:
POSM the price of oil is where it's at because the Saudis are producing flat out. The 2 reasons for the increase in production are to put the frackers and tar sand producers out of business by lowering the price below their cost of production while they are still carrying large debt. The other reason is the Saudi cash reserves are quickly diminishing and they are trying to move more oil to cover their crazy arsed expenses.
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And it's a desperate move on the part of the Saudis because the Unconventional Extraction revolution has taken away their influence on US Foreign Policy. The only reason Saudi Arabia haven't been put under more pressure to slow production by their US backers is because the low oil price hurts Russia even more. At the end of the day the US knows that it need not be so reliant on foreign energy imports and is content for the Mid East to remain unstable thus keeping a vast, cheap fuel source out of the hands of any single power.

And oil being the primary motive for involvement in Syria is an odd one. Pre-Civil War Syria was sitting around 30th in the global rankings for daily oil production. Countries such as Thailand and Ecuador were beating them on the ladder (Australia sitting a few rungs up around the mid-high 20s). Iraq does produce more but Iraq has been a mess since the 1st gulf war and all IS have done is put a singular face on the insurgency as opposed to the previous clusterfuck. Meanwhile in the last 10 years Nigeria - the country with the largest oil reserves in Africa and 11th largest in the world- has seen it's output crippled to less than 25% of normal due to a home-grown insurgency in the oil-producing South and widespread oil theft and corruption, yet we've never seen any Western military involvement in that neck of the woods.

Countries such as the US, UK, France being involved in the first place comes down to a multitude of factors, from agreements with and/or political pressure from neighbouring countries such as Turkey and Israel, Outrage at home in the face of IS' genocidal campaigns and the Western hostage beheadings being played all over the news, and the current humanitarian crisis as millions of refugees flee into Europe.
 
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And there is a climate change factor - big unprecedented droughts in the middle east have wreaked havoc on food producing regions and created a whole generation of poor, uneducated, desperate and unemployed men looking for someone to blame for their shit lives and who are prime targets for being sucked into religious bullshit.
 
pharmaboy said:
Terrorist attacks have a remarkable association with religion, and a particular one at that.

The idea that the violence would occur anyway, fatally misses the obvious facts. What extremist religion gives you, is not only the motivation, but the steadfast certainty, that you will go to a better place when you die, and and steadfast certainty that you are better than the infidels. The hate is merely a bonus

Purely political violence carries a fear of being caught and a fear of dying - these curtail these types of random violence quite a bit.

Edit - from a western perspective, there is also something inately terrifying about someone mad enough to kills themselves in the process
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No, terrorist attacks on western targets have an association with Islam. As POSM said before, the politics and history of the middle east are incredibly complicated.. I'm yet to read anything that gives a solid and concise explanation of why the region is the way it is. But terrorism can be seen everywhere in the world - and most places have much higher death tolls than we do in the west.

The drug fueled terrorism in central and south america is a really good parallel to draw - As over dramatised as it is, watch Narcos - great TV show. That's a majority christian area of the world too.

I was in Myanmar at the start of the year, where there is hate for a Muslim minority by a Buddist majority (a religion many tout as peaceful). A lot of Rohingas are being killed, starved and jailed unjustly because of a fracturing of communities in Myanmar and Bangladesh.

Why are these young Muslim men attacking western targets? We sort of deserve it... Constant war and instability that has at least in part been a result of western influence in the region pretty much every couple of years since the beginning of the last century. I'm 22 years old: if I was born in Iraq I would experienced three multi-national wars in my lifetime in my own country. And who would I blame? Sure my own leaders have been corrupt, power hungry and tyrannous. But the US and its allies have caused a lot of the conflict and suffering in Iraq - when really it was none of their business. Had I been born into that situation.. I probably would hate the west and what it had done to my people.

Iran is a great example of what happens when you leave a middle eastern country to its own accord with relatively non-violent leadership. They're a well educated, well developed, thriving country. And while there isn't great freedom of the press, women's rights or democracy.. There's a lot of natural development happening in these areas, just like it has in the rest of the world.
 
g-fish said:
Iran is a great example of what happens when you leave a middle eastern country to its own accord with relatively non-violent leadership. They're a well educated, well developed, thriving country. And while there isn't great freedom of the press, women's rights or democracy.. There's a lot of natural development happening in these areas, just like it has in the rest of the world.
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right, so people they are only executing hundreds and not tens of thousands, they are doing good.?

I suppose at least they haven't been stoning people to death in the last 5 years, but are happy to execute people for adultery, sodomy, drinking alcohol and other heinous acts.

My word you have Set a very low bar for a good result.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran#Harsh_punishments
 
pharmaboy said:
right, so people they are only executing hundreds and not tens of thousands, they are doing good.?

I suppose at least they haven't been stoning people to death in the last 5 years, but are happy to execute people for adultery, sodomy, drinking alcohol and other heinous acts.

My word you have Set a very low bar for a good result.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran#Harsh_punishments
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Of course all of those things are horrific. I have a friend who is an Iranian refugee, now an Australian who fled because her father was to be executed by the current government.

But what's your solution? Sending in our own army or sponsoring some other middle eastern group to do our work for us clearly does not work.. The diplomatic effort recently around the nuclear program shows what can be done peacefully. More can be done around this. But ultimately we must respect the governance of sovereign nations.. If countries are given stability they will find their own path to democracy and peace, that's what has happened throughout history. Specific to this example: Iranian people are well educated, worldly, and not radicalised. Democracy and stronger human rights will come to Iran in time through relatively peaceful domestic process. Shooting the place up would be a pretty hypocritical way of bringing democracy to the country.
 
g-fish said:
Of course all of those things are horrific. I have a friend who is an Iranian refugee, now an Australian who fled because her father was to be executed by the current government.

But what's your solution? Sending in our own army or sponsoring some other middle eastern group to do our work for us clearly does not work.. The diplomatic effort recently around the nuclear program shows what can be done peacefully. More can be done around this. But ultimately we must respect the governance of sovereign nations.. If countries are given stability they will find their own path to democracy and peace, that's what has happened throughout history. Specific to this example: Iranian people are well educated, worldly, and not radicalised. Democracy and stronger human rights will come to Iran in time through relatively peaceful domestic process. Shooting the place up would be a pretty hypocritical way of bringing democracy to the country.
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You seem to have a binary view - the option opposed to doing nothing, is not invading - that's just a stupid straw man argument.

I don't have a solution and don't claim to - but I'm not going to hold up as a hero a regime that cuts off the hands and feet of robbers.

The Middle East seems to be choca block full of religious looneys who would happily kill you and I just because we don't share the same beliefs. There is no easy answer to that - rest assured though, rolling over like a puppy and pissing all over yourself isn't going to cut it either .

However, people who have no human rights, are murdered and tortured, won't suddenly get equality and fairness if we just sit around and hope ( and look the other way)

On another note, news is about the exception - we stop paying attention to 100 people killed in a market bombing, but we pay attention when it happens in a secular western country?

(Just secretly I'm coming to blame Turkey and Saudi Arabia the most)
 
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