Terrorism: Paris, Syria, Turkey, Belgium, Florida......

g-fish

Likes Bikes and Dirt
You seem to have a binary view - the option opposed to doing nothing, is not invading - that's just a stupid straw man argument.

I don't have a solution and don't claim to - but I'm not going to hold up as a hero a regime that cuts off the hands and feet of robbers.

The Middle East seems to be choca block full of religious looneys who would happily kill you and I just because we don't share the same beliefs. There is no easy answer to that - rest assured though, rolling over like a puppy and pissing all over yourself isn't going to cut it either .

However, people who have no human rights, are murdered and tortured, won't suddenly get equality and fairness if we just sit around and hope ( and look the other way)

On another note, news is about the exception - we stop paying attention to 100 people killed in a market bombing, but we pay attention when it happens in a secular western country?

(Just secretly I'm coming to blame Turkey and Saudi Arabia the most)
Yeah I am being binary. But fighting violence with more violence is clearly hypocritical. I am not anti-war, I'm quite pragmatic about it, its a necessary last resort.

I didn't hold Iran up as a hero, but they've unlike other middle eastern countries that have dealt with direct western intervention they've developed past constant infighting and are on their way to development.. That doesn't excuse them from "cutting peoples hands off", but I'd take that with a grain of salt.

I agree, the "sensible" countries Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Jordan are to blame as well.. I haven't read into their involvement enough, but they do benefit from this instability.

I'm putting my money where my mouth is and will be bike touring from Tehran through Turkey and onto Europe next year.. So I'll tell you what it's like when I get there. :target:
 

placebo

Likes Dirt
Iran is a great example of what happens when you leave a middle eastern country to its own accord with relatively non-violent leadership. They're a well educated, well developed, thriving country. And while there isn't great freedom of the press, women's rights or democracy.. There's a lot of natural development happening in these areas, just like it has in the rest of the world.
A shiite theocracy that came to power in a violent revolution, violently represses internal dissent, and has combat forces in Syria pursuing its aims in the sunni-shiite sectarian conflict that surrounds Iran, and has been subject to UN sanctions because of its nuclear weapons program is relatively non-violent? What does a relatively violent leadership look like?
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Yeah I am being binary. But fighting violence with more violence is clearly hypocritical. I am not anti-war, I'm quite pragmatic about it, its a necessary last resort.

I didn't hold Iran up as a hero, but they've unlike other middle eastern countries that have dealt with direct western intervention they've developed past constant infighting and are on their way to development.. That doesn't excuse them from "cutting peoples hands off", but I'd take that with a grain of salt.

I agree, the "sensible" countries Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Jordan are to blame as well.. I haven't read into their involvement enough, but they do benefit from this instability.

I'm putting my money where my mouth is and will be bike touring from Tehran through Turkey and onto Europe next year.. So I'll tell you what it's like when I get there. :target:
Yeah, sorry dude, I don't mean to be patronising but I think you need to do a good bit more listening and reading on these subjects before you form solid opinions.
 

g-fish

Likes Bikes and Dirt
A shiite theocracy that came to power in a violent revolution, violently represses internal dissent, and has combat forces in Syria pursuing its aims in the sunni-shiite sectarian conflict that surrounds Iran, and has been subject to UN sanctions because of its nuclear weapons program is relatively non-violent? What does a relatively violent leadership look like?
A violent revolution to oust an unelected monarch who came to power via a US backed coup, so they could regain access to Iranian oil. There was massive public support for the 1979 revolution. I mean the dude called himself king of kings.. Imagine how quickly Malcolm would be chased out of office if he called himself king of kings?

I've come off as quite pro-Iran. There are obvious deep rooted freedom/legal/cultural/political issues in the country, I'm not denying that. But there are big steps being taken internally around womens rights, freedom of the press and reestablishing western contact.. The same liberalisation has happened the world over when countries have gone through this transition to liberty and democracy. It's never smooth, but it does eventually happen.

The situation is different with ISIS.. They gained power off the back of populist demonstrations during the Arab Spring in Syria. I'm not sure anyone knows what the answer there is.. But by the looks of what some politicians have been saying over the past day we might be back in a "boots on the ground" situation... Back to the same old mess.

And Johnny, of course, I can always read more.. But I am pretty well read in this topic. I just don't buy into the total demonisation of some governments because they don't operate like ours do.
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
Concerned of throwing the baby out with the bath water here

Boots on the ground didn't necessarily cause this mess - the US was far less involved in the ME when 911 happened. I think Iraq was an error, and probably accepted by the big majority by now, but one reason it was a big error, was that it took resources away from Afghanistan which really was harbouring terrorists.

Put the same amount of effort into Afghanistan as they did into Iraq and maybe it would have been quickly brought into order and some level of democracy established.

Having said that, one has to truly wonder whether any type of democracy is possible in these countries? Maybe the most stable model is actually a despot with an iron fist and an element of sociopathic tendencies?

Maybe interesting..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alon-benmeir/is-islam-compatible-with_b_3562579.html?ir=Australia
 

mitch_302

Likes Dirt
Looks like I'll get some differing opinions here, but any suggestions on books or any other sources to start getting a better understanding of all this friction/the realities of the Islamic faith?
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
France definitely has some serious social problems, especially with their Muslim population. However, I'd also be skeptical of surveys carried out by Russian media anywhere, let alone in Western Europe who have strong econ sanctions on Russia.
 

.dan.

Likes Dirt
Having said that, one has to truly wonder whether any type of democracy is possible in these countries? Maybe the most stable model is actually a despot with an iron fist and an element of sociopathic tendencies?
The problem many westerners have is they believe that every non-democratic country around the world would benefit from becoming a democracy. This is a rather narrow minded point of view to have. It may work for us, but for them it is often a completely different situation. There's too many cultural differences, etc. for it to work in many foreign places. I also think it is not our job to go sticking our noses into foreign countries business, telling them what we think they should do, and occasionally fucking things up for them just because we think differently. And IMO democracy isn't that great of a governmental structure, but at this point in our history it seems to be the best we have.
 

PINT of Stella. mate!

Many, many Scotches
France definitely has some serious social problems, especially with their Muslim population. However, I'd also be skeptical of surveys carried out by Russian media anywhere, let alone in Western Europe who have strong econ sanctions on Russia.
11 out of 10 Russians love Vladimir Putin (But obviously not in a gay way)


France's problems go back decades. Shit, 'La Haine' is 20 years old now 9I feel old) and it was set in suburbs of Paris that had seen racial tension for decades. It's also worth noting that France has had a long history of antagonism towards their muslim immigrant populations. The French were renowned arseholes to their foreign subjects back in the colonial days and the rise of Jean Marie Le Pen's National Front Party in the 90's and the more recent 'Burqa Ban' law probably haven't helped ease any tensions.

It's still not excusing the actions of the rapey paedos in ISIS but it does go a little way into explaining why France is near the top of the list for attacks like this.
 

eastie

Likes Bikes and Dirt
You were surprised at the recent targets, most will be surprised at whatever is the next.
Reading through here for mild amusement, it's amusing how little people know about the world, about international relations, religion, the powerhouses, the extent of the reach of extremists, that the cold war is over, we once fought alongside the evil russians and to some who didn't write the history books the japanese freed the dutch east indies from cruel dutch rule. Reading this is nearly as amusing as watching an officer walk in circles with a map (based upon historic information/discovery/investigation) and compass.
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
France definitely has some serious social problems, especially with their Muslim population. However, I'd also be skeptical of surveys carried out by Russian media anywhere, let alone in Western Europe who have strong econ sanctions on Russia.
Pew research came up with some pretty frightening stuff as well a couple of years ago

22% of Muslims believe that attacks on civilians can sometimes be justified in defence of Islam
60% in favour of stoning for adultery
62% believe that murdering of a woman for engaging in pre marital sex
52% think death is the correct punishment for leaving Islam
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

It's not fun reading, wouldn't recommend it. Its incomprehensible to me how any adult can harbour these sorts of views - just can't figure it out
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
The problem many westerners have is they believe that every non-democratic country around the world would benefit from becoming a democracy. This is a rather narrow minded point of view to have. It may work for us, but for them it is often a completely different situation. There's too many cultural differences, etc. for it to work in many foreign places. I also think it is not our job to go sticking our noses into foreign countries business, telling them what we think they should do, and occasionally fucking things up for them just because we think differently. And IMO democracy isn't that great of a governmental structure, but at this point in our history it seems to be the best we have.
While I agree overall, isn't it interesting that you felt the need to say "cultural differnces" rather than religious differences in this context?

You know, elephant in the room and all that, or King has no clothes - either metaphor works.
 

stirk

Burner
Pew research came up with some pretty frightening stuff as well a couple of years ago

22% of Muslims believe that attacks on civilians can sometimes be justified in defence of Islam
60% in favour of stoning for adultery
62% believe that murdering of a woman for engaging in pre marital sex
52% think death is the correct punishment for leaving Islam
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

It's not fun reading, wouldn't recommend it. Its incomprehensible to me how any adult can harbour these sorts of views - just can't figure it out
PEW are a bunch of cunts. Biggest crap wankers in the world who love throwing around numbers and percentages so long as they suit their agenda.

PEW are on the nose.
 

Marx

Likes Dirt
I can only assume that if a person's life, family & immediate surrounding community is a complete toilet, then the prospect of fame from martyrdom would seem appealing.
With the growing inpatients in the West as a result of these sorts of events, it may be time for the western developed countries to take a proactive lead and wholesale reconstruct a better society for these malcontents to occupy.
The failed 'Arab Spring' in North Africa & the Middle East has plainly illustrated that there isn't any leadership worth speaking of, or any coherent community fraternity, to build an equitable and stable society to provide it's peoples any worthwhile motivations for a better life, while still here on earth.
Any greater focus on religion is effectively a cop out on the responsibilities & efforts required for the active participation in the building of nationhood for it's citizens & leaders.
God will only provide what Man sets out to do for himself.
 

Freediver

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Looks like I'll get some differing opinions here, but any suggestions on books or any other sources to start getting a better understanding of all this friction/the realities of the Islamic faith?
"Islam, a short history" by Karen Armstrong is here in PDF http://ashtoncentralmosque.com/wp-c.../Islam-A-Short-History-by-Karen-Armstrong.pdf
There are plenty of books on the Sykes Picot Agreement which is pretty much where modern history starts or as some say maybe it was with the Crimean War . Pink Poodle is kind of right about Lawrence of Arabia but it's a bit more complex than the film version.
 

PINT of Stella. mate!

Many, many Scotches
Pew research came up with some pretty frightening stuff as well a couple of years ago

22% of Muslims believe that attacks on civilians can sometimes be justified in defence of Islam
60% in favour of stoning for adultery
62% believe that murdering of a woman for engaging in pre marital sex
52% think death is the correct punishment for leaving Islam
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

It's not fun reading, wouldn't recommend it. Its incomprehensible to me how any adult can harbour these sorts of views - just can't figure it out
Hey, ask similar questions of the Christian population across Africa and you'll find similar results with an added high percentage in favour of death for homosexuality too. Does that mean that 20% of all christians are in favour of stoning for immoral behaviour? Am I to be worried when the local Christian Mountain Biking Club start hanging around the rock gardens?
 
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