Wheel Build Advice Thread

[Nambra]

@Nambra really appreciate and hopefully you'll be patient with me!

So my bike is definitely where rim is centered between flanges and the rear triangle of frame is asymmetric? (Appears frame designed to have rim sit towards brake side of frame slightly) (RM Slayer 2017)

The current hub/rim combo uses single length spokes which would suggest the flanges are equal. Is that right?

If so, does that mean an offset rim doesn't make sense?

I’m probably not the right person to answer you, I’m all but spent with wheel building advice in my previous post!

So, doing a little more digging (and here) on your RF Aeffect R 30 wheel, it does indeed say that it is built around one spoke length and possibly a decent Formula hub - spokes are also bladed too?

The fact that the drive and non-drive side spoke lengths are the same is likely to be a result of:
a) different flange diameters on the hub,
b) offset drilling on the rim (if it is offset), and
c) offset frame design if indeed your RM Slayer is designed like this... I'm not sure it is though.

If you install your rear wheel the wrong way around (might need to take off your brake rotor) does the tyre still look lined up the same in the rear triangle? If so, there's probably no hub asymmetry with respect to the frame ie. it's a 'normal' frame. Clearance from tyre to chain stay and seat stay might differ from one side to the other even when the wheel is centrally aligned - probably a result of optimisations in the design process (possible due to all the finite element analysis and stress modelling that modern CAD tools are capable of).

I digress though - you're simply after a new rim aren't you. I think you've got two options:

1. If you want to keep your existing spokes, then you need a rim that closely matches the old one, in terms of ERD (effective rim diameter) and spoke drilling offset if applicable. This is going to limit your options, but you'll probably still find a good rim. Finding out the details on the old rim might be more the challenge (has the rim got any markings)?
2. You choose a rim you want, then recalculate the spoke lengths for it and get new spokes and nipples at the same time. Sometimes this is better as you know you've got a more or less brand new wheel at the end of it (assuming the hub is in good condition).

Does this resemble your current wheel (stolen from mtb direct)? If so, it looks like a standard symmetrical rim, and you can see the wider drive side hub flange. A symmetrical rim would be easier to find a replacement for - you just need the ERD of the current rim.

 

[northvanguy]

I’m probably not the right person to answer you, I’m all but spent with wheel building advice in my previous post!

So, doing a little more digging (and here) on your RF Aeffect R 30 wheel, it does indeed say that it is built around one spoke length and possibly a decent Formula hub - spokes are also bladed too?

The fact that the drive and non-drive side spoke lengths are the same is likely to be a result of:
a) different flange diameters on the hub,
b) offset drilling on the rim (if it is offset), and
c) offset frame design if indeed your RM Slayer is designed like this... I'm not sure it is though.

If you install your rear wheel the wrong way around (might need to take off your brake rotor) does the tyre still look lined up the same in the rear triangle? If so, there's probably no hub asymmetry with respect to the frame ie. it's a 'normal' frame. Clearance from tyre to chain stay and seat stay might differ from one side to the other even when the wheel is centrally aligned - probably a result of optimisations in the design process (possible due to all the finite element analysis and stress modelling that modern CAD tools are capable of).

I digress though - you're simply after a new rim aren't you. I think you've got two options:

1. If you want to keep your existing spokes, then you need a rim that closely matches the old one, in terms of ERD (effective rim diameter) and spoke drilling offset if applicable. This is going to limit your options, but you'll probably still find a good rim. Finding out the details on the old rim might be more the challenge (has the rim got any markings)?
2. You choose a rim you want, then recalculate the spoke lengths for it and get new spokes and nipples at the same time. Sometimes this is better as you know you've got a more or less brand new wheel at the end of it (assuming the hub is in good condition).

Does this resemble your current wheel (stolen from mtb direct)? If so, it looks like a standard symmetrical rim, and you can see the wider drive side hub flange. A symmetrical rim would be easier to find a replacement for - you just need the ERD of the current rim.
View attachment 362405

Yep that is the hub and wheelset...

It appears to me to be a symmetrical rim... And it clearly states 558mm++ for ERD on the rim... which is also considered 562 as RF assumes 2mm per nipple head.

Now... the Race Face AR and ARC 30 rims come with identical ERD but are "offset"...

So I don't understand if I can just simply lace one of those up using the existing spokes and nippes or if I need the new rim to be symmetrical?

Really appreciate the ridiculous amount of detail and patient responses!

Maybe I should just buy a whole new rear wheel haha.

 

[Nambra]

Yep that is the hub and wheelset...

It appears to me to be a symmetrical rim... And it clearly states 558mm++ for ERD on the rim... which is also considered 562 as RF assumes 2mm per nipple head.

Now... the Race Face AR and ARC 30 rims come with identical ERD but are "offset"...

So I don't understand if I can just simply lace one of those up using the existing spokes and nippes or if I need the new rim to be symmetrical?

Really appreciate the ridiculous amount of detail and patient responses!

Maybe I should just buy a whole new rear wheel haha.

Going from a symmetrical to an asymmetrical rim might work - but if you maintain the same spoke bracing angles your rim won't be centred on the hub any more so your tyre will sit to one side. The ARC 30 has a 4.5mm offset from rim centreline; you'll have to dish your wheel to compensate.

Assuming a spoke length of maybe 284mm, to pull the rim 4.5mm to one side, you need to loosen (lengthen) spokes one side by about 0.5mm and tighten (shorten) the other side by the same amount. +/-0.5mm is probably doable with existing spokes, not sure if the wheel will look good though!

 

[northvanguy]

Going from a symmetrical to an asymmetrical rim might work - but if you maintain the same spoke bracing angles your rim won't be centred on the hub any more so your tyre will sit to one side. The ARC 30 has a 4.5mm offset from rim centreline; you'll have to dish your wheel to compensate.
View attachment 362408

Assuming a spoke length of maybe 284mm, to pull the rim 4.5mm to one side, you need to loosen (lengthen) spokes one side by about 0.5mm and tighten (shorten) the other side by the same amount. +/-0.5mm is probably doable with existing spokes, not sure if the wheel will look good though!

Cool.

I'm still confused but I'll keep googling.

Thanks.

 

[The Duckmeister]

The current hub/rim combo uses single length spokes which would suggest the flanges are equal. Is that right?

The opposite in fact. Due to the different bracing angles on each side as illustrated further up, equal flange sizes dictate longer spokes on the rear disc side, and front non-disc side. Therefore to enable equal length spokes, those respective flanges need to be larger than their opposites in order to correct for the longer spoke path.

Perversely, increasing the flange diameter but not also bring it inboard a bit will actually serve to increase the difference in bracing angles, and consequently the tension difference between each side.

Rebuilkding with an offset (AKA asymmetric) rim will reduce the differences in bracing angles and tensions, giving a stronger wheel, but depending on the extent of offset may mean you'll lose the simplicity of equal spoke lengths.

That simplicity is the key behind equal length spokes.... Cheaper for the manufacturer as they don't need to source and stock multiple different spokes, easier for anyone who has to service the wheel, as the one spoke will fit anywhere.

 

[northvanguy]

The opposite in fact. Due to the different bracing angles on each side as illustrated further up, equal flange sizes dictate longer spokes on the rear disc side, and front non-disc side. Therefore to enable equal length spokes, those respective flanges need to be larger than their opposites in order to correct for the longer spoke path.

@The Duckmeister - to the eye i would bet my life the front hub flanges are identical in size, but i suppose it would only need to be a very slight variance to impact the spoke length. That said, would a manufacturer use the same length spokes but just "adjust" the spoke length by how much you essentially use of it? Basically, would they basically create different spoke lengths just by using up more of one side of spokes vs the other to get the correct alignment? It's clear with the front hub that the rim sits closer to the disc side than the non-disc side relative to the flanges.

 

[northvanguy]

Alright.... i'm starting to "see the light" and it's all starting to make sense.

Rim centre will be 74mm from each side of hub, in order to be centred in the bike. Got it, that was pretty basic but it sure seemed to me like the rim was off centre in the bike towrards the disc side but upon further reflection it isnt.

So an asymetrical rim - the spoke holes will sit closer to the disc side, but the rim will "offset" back towards the freehub side in order to remain at 74mm (centred). By doing so, the spoke lengths and angles are "more similar" therefore a stronger wheel. I presume the ideal would be when spoke lengths and angles from both sides are exactly the same, but that's not possible given the freehub variance.

THat would explain why Knolly, for example, likes SuperBoost as it allows for the hub flanges to space out more and reduce the variance in angles to rim. So SuperBoost with an "offset" rim would be getting pretty close to "equal".

Am i getting this?

Then i ask - how on earth did RF think the Aeffect wheelset with same length spokes makes any sense? Does that just mean that the spokes from the freehub side are threaded on much further than the disc side, basically faking different spoke lengths? I mean, i suppose if one side of spokes is threaded through the nipple an extra mm or two from one side vs the rest what's the difference especially when you have so much room to play between the rim nipple and the rim strip.

I'm clearly not fully understanding yet but i think i'm getting closer.

 

[LPG]

You seem to understand. Rim offset or hub offset (with an asymmetric rear end) both basically do the same thing of shifting the flange locations relative to the centre line of the wheel. Controlling this let's you minimise differences to the spokes.

My bike I built with 3mm offset rims and was able to use identical spoke sizes but 16mm nipples on the drive side and 14 on the ends on the rear. Front were able to be the same spokes and nipples on both sides.

Have a play with the DT swiss wheel build calculator and you should get a pretty good understanding of it.

 

[northvanguy]

Well my latest thought is that the ERD on my current Aeffect R 30 rim = 558++ ERD (RF's definition not mine).

If i swap it out for a RF ARC 30 Offset - the rim is also according to RF 558++....

Because the current wheel was built with same length spokes, then going to offset should only improve the balance of length. I would assume from what i'm learning that currently my disc side spokes are probably slightly short, and the freehub side slightly long, but close enough that RF was able to get away with single length. By moving to an offset rim i should partially correct that imbalance without needing new spokes (wheel is only 3 months old so i'm already annoyed that i'm needing a new rim.......so trying to be creative!).

 

[LPG]

Well my latest thought is that the ERD on my current Aeffect R 30 rim = 558++ ERD (RF's definition not mine).

If i swap it out for a RF ARC 30 Offset - the rim is also according to RF 558++....

Because the current wheel was built with same length spokes, then going to offset should only improve the balance of length. I would assume from what i'm learning that currently my disc side spokes are probably slightly short, and the freehub side slightly long, but close enough that RF was able to get away with single length. By moving to an offset rim i should partially correct that imbalance without needing new spokes (wheel is only 3 months old so i'm already annoyed that i'm needing a new rim.......so trying to be creative!).

Keep in mind that the ERD is the same but the side to side location of the nipple holes is 3mm different. I cant remember how this is calculated on the calculator

 

[northvanguy]

Keep in mind that the ERD is the same but the side to side location of the nipple holes is 3mm different. I cant remember how this is calculated on the calculator

Cheers @LPG for warning.

Given that i'm improving the spoke balance by shifting (offset) by 3mm towards the disc side, and given that my wheel currently is built with single length spokes, wouldnt that suggest that the spokes will be actually better suited to the offset rim than the current rim?

I'm actually surprised that RF (given what i now know) was able to build up a symmetric rim with single length spokes and the same size nipples without any obvious difference in flange sizes (maybe that's something i need to verify to be absolutely sure)

 

[LPG]

Cheers @LPG for warning.

Given that i'm improving the spoke balance by shifting (offset) by 3mm towards the disc side, and given that my wheel currently is built with single length spokes, wouldnt that suggest that the spokes will be actually better suited to the offset rim than the current rim?

I'm actually surprised that RF (given what i now know) was able to build up a symmetric rim with single length spokes and the same size nipples without any obvious difference in flange sizes (maybe that's something i need to verify to be absolutely sure)

Does seem odd. If you want post the details of the rims and guns and I'll have an quick look. Probably wont be until tomorrow though

 

[Flow-Rider]

Cheers @LPG for warning.

Given that i'm improving the spoke balance by shifting (offset) by 3mm towards the disc side, and given that my wheel currently is built with single length spokes, wouldnt that suggest that the spokes will be actually better suited to the offset rim than the current rim?

I'm actually surprised that RF (given what i now know) was able to build up a symmetric rim with single length spokes and the same size nipples without any obvious difference in flange sizes (maybe that's something i need to verify to be absolutely sure)

Is there really long threads on the spokes or shims used somewhere on the rim or hub ?

But saying that, I've got an old set of 26" XT straight pull rims and even though they listed 2 different spokes from left to right, when I snapped a few I was able to replace them all with the one length without modifying anything. There just wasn't a big difference in spoke lengths to start with.

 

[northvanguy]

Is there really long threads on the spokes or shims used somewhere on the rim or hub ?

Nothing apparent.... no threads showing from either L or R sides........ i can only think that perhaps there's more thread through the top of the nipple on the driveside spokes but i havent peeled back the rim strip yet as i'm still using the wheel.........

 

[The Duckmeister]

Keep in mind that the ERD is the same but the side to side location of the nipple holes is 3mm different. I cant remember how this is calculated on the calculator

When calculating, correct for rim offset (in this context meaning at the soke holes) by adjusting the hub centre-flange measurements in the opposite direstion to the rim offset. EG, say you measure your hub with a 33mm centre-left flange distance and 17mm centre-right flange, and the rim is offset 3mm to the left, when plugging the numbers into the calculator you tell it 30mm for the left side and 20mm for the right. If building a front wheel with an offset rim, simply work the opposite way; orient the rim bed toward the non-disc side, then push your flange measurements to the disc side.

 

[northvanguy]

Super Boost Plus 157 rear axle standard – is it here to stay?

Super Boost Plus is the latest standard for rear axle spacing. We go into detail and explain the pros, cons and tech facts to find out if it’s here to stay.

enduro-mtb.com

As I've started to understand the offset rim in superboost would add another layer of strength... I think... in theory.

 

[blacksp20]

After several months of fighting with my old Stans Arch EX wheels on my Prime, I’m ready to concede defeat and lace up a new rear rim. Pretty much sold on a FLOW MK3 with DT competition spokes and brass nipples.
I’m a clyde (110kg) but don’t ride stupidly rough. What is the general consensus with nipple washers on these rims?

Problem with the Arch EX in the rear is the spokes keep loosening up over a few rides and all of a sudden the rim feels like it is folding under me in faster/tighter turns. I’m having to increase rear tyre pressure as the tyre squirms on the rim when this happens, causing the rear wheel to slip. I am aware the Arch are a very narrow rim, so jumping up 10mm should help with the tyre squirm. I am the second owner of the wheels and I was not overly kind to them on the hardtail they were previously fitted to, so the rims and spokes could do with an update. Front is good for now and it’s not giving me grief. This will be my first wheel build so want to ease myself into it.

 

[T-Rex]

After several months of fighting with my old Stans Arch EX wheels on my Prime, I’m ready to concede defeat and lace up a new rear rim. Pretty much sold on a FLOW MK3 with DT competition spokes and brass nipples.
I’m a clyde (110kg) but don’t ride stupidly rough. What is the general consensus with nipple washers on these rims?

Follow the rim manufacturer recommendation on nipple washers.

if your spokes keep coming loose, consider changing what you use on the threads. Some people swear by linseed oil, which is a lube when building but after a week sets like a Thread locker. Wick in Locktite is another option, I have used both occasionally.

 

[Oddjob]

I'm a big fan of Lanotec heavy duty. Its a lanolin based anti-seize and corrosion inhibitor that sets into a slightly tacky grease. Shimano anti-sieze is good too.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk

 

[Ultra Lord]

Ewwwww sheep grease. Lanolin is gross. Be careful with how much you use, kiwi’s can smell it a mile off and you don’t want a hoard of those bastards rockin semi’s chasing you around on a ride.

what you want is a mix of 4 parts slick honey, 2 parts bearing retainer loctite.