Why is pill testing even a debate?

[Binaural]

There are legitimate grounds to expect social harm that need to be dealt with. Some drugs inarguably make driving or using machinery safely hard or impossible. Society isn't ready for instant legalisation of many drugs, but that's not to say that a framework could not be built to make a partial transition possible.

 

[ForkinGreat]

There are legitimate grounds to expect social harm that need to be dealt with. Some drugs inarguably make driving or using machinery safely hard or impossible. Society isn't ready for instant legalisation of many drugs, but that's not to say that a framework could not be built to make a partial transition possible.

Break out the popcorn and take note of what's happening with Cannabis in Canada and certain US states. That might give some ideas on how to handle it(??)

 

[Plankosaurus]

Nup.

That's what YOU want to feel pill testing is about. Other people feel differently. Simple as that.

It is in effect legitimising illegal actions. MANY people have an issue with that. They disagree with you entirely.

Nup.

Saying "these pills are illegal and dangerous, here's a list of ingredients for you to think about"
Is very different to saying "here's a list of ingredients, looks like there's no rat poison so go chow down as many of these as you want"


You're talking about perception vs what's actually being said. People are going to spin things to suit their agenda/narrative in all aspects of life.

Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk

 

[John U]

The war on drugs is complete and utter failure. This is recognised by many senior police after they retire. Many senior officials who deal with outfall agree. It blocks up the court system and makes criminals of/gives criminal records to some who would be nowhere near crime in a sane society. It wastes police resources and a fuck tonne of money. It kills the vulnerable. For what reason?

Tax and control. Educate. Introduce pill testing.

 

[Binaural]

Break out the popcorn and take note of what's happening with Cannabis in Canada and certain US states. That might give some ideas on how to handle it(??)

They are doing a pretty terrible job of it in the US at least. For starters, cannabis is still illegal federally. They are exposing users, growers and financiers to some pretty severe risks due to these massive inconsistencies. You can be arrested driving through some states for possession, and drug sentences there are very very long. Canada or Portugal is probably a better example.

 

[climberman]

Prohibition does "work" in the sense that it reduces drug consumption, relative to how much consumption there would be if these drugs were unregulated. It probably doesn't "work" in the sense that it minimises harm to society and individuals overall compared to managing supply. There are always going to be some drugs or chemicals we will want to keep banned, on the grounds that they are disproportionately dangerous. How would you feel about heroin and meth being widely available? They are very inexpensive chemical to synthesise, after all, but as you argue above their LD50 is not very far away from their threshold of perception.

Re smack and meth availability - in what way aren't they available now? If you want them they are very easily and widely available. I'm not at all convinced that prohibition does anything. Anyway, very hard to tell conclusively.

Portugal has essentially decriminalised personal drug use. It's a rare case study and they have taken an interesting and somewhat brave approach. Australia were world leaders in harm minimisation and aggressive approaches to HIV containment in the '80's, we seem to have come back from this high and become socially conservative scared weird little guys afraid of even going to casting call, let alone getting up on the world stage, for anything.

Some Portugal info:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/22/opinion/sunday/portugal-drug-decriminalization.html
https://mic.com/articles/110344/14-...-all-drugs-here-s-what-s-happening#.pfAaGsTQ3
https://www.theguardian.com/news/20...licy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal

Thorough studies on how the various efforts have been implemented were not conducted. Thus, a causal effect between strategy efforts and these developments cannot be firmly established.[12] There are, however, statistical indicators that suggest the following correlations between the drug strategy and the following developments, from July 2001 up to 2007:

• Increased uptake of treatment (roughly 60% increase as of 2012.)[12]
• Reduction in new HIV diagnoses amongst drug users by 17%[19] and a general drop of 90% in drug-related HIV infection
• Reduction in drug related deaths, although this reduction has decreased in later years. The number of drug related deaths is now almost on the same level as before the Drug strategy was implemented.[12][19] However, this may be accounted for by improvement in measurement practices, which includes a doubling of toxicological autopsies now being performed, meaning that more drugs related deaths are likely to be recorded.[20]
• Reported lifetime use of "all illicit drugs" increased from 7.8% to 12%, lifetime use of cannabis increased from 7.6% to 11.7%, cocaine use more than doubled, from 0.9% to 1.9%, ecstasy nearly doubled from 0.7% to 1.3%, and heroin increased from 0.7% to 1.1%[19] It has been proposed[by whom?] that this effect may have been related to the candor of interviewees, who may have been inclined to answer more truthfully due to a reduction in the stigma associated with drug use.[20] However, during the same period, the use of heroin and cannabis also increased in Spain and Italy, where drugs for personal use was decriminalised many years earlier than in Portugal [20][21] while the use of Cannabis and heroin decreased in the rest of Western Europe.[22][23] The increase in drug use observed among adults in Portugal was not greater than that seen in nearby countries that did not change their drug laws.[24]
• Drug use among adolescents (13-15 yrs) and "problematic" users declined.[20]
• Drug-related criminal justice workloads decreased.[20]
• Decreased street value of most illicit drugs, some significantly
• The number of drug related deaths has reduced from 131 in 2001 to 20 in 2008.[25] As of 2012, Portugal's drug death toll sat at 3 per million, in comparison to the EU average of 17.3 per million.
• Homicide rate increased from 1.13 per 100 000 in 2000 to 1.76 in 2007, then decreased to 0.96 in 2015 [26][27][28]

 

[droenn]

Given that we are all going cashless anyway, could repurpose the Australian Mint to stamp out state sponsored disco biccies!

Think of all the commemorative editions you could push out

 

[Dozer]

Looking into a crystal ball here, if testing it was introduced and it created a wave of clean drugs (not sure of thats the right wording?) then it could be one of the steps taken to making party drugs something akin to alcohol and it is sold in a controlled (............and taxed) way and becomes at least reliable that not every ounce of it could potentially be ratsak. In a nutshell I guess this is what some are saying and this could be a relatively good thing that may even have a spiraling effect where the chemists and cooks and dealers etc etc are shut down and the flow on from that may mean we have less deadshits roaming around breaking into other people's homes and cars and stealing the oxygen decent people breathe.
Is that possible or is that the pipeline dream in a fairy land full of rainbows and unicorns?

 

[teK--]

Nup.

That's what YOU want to feel pill testing is about. Other people feel differently. Simple as that.

It is in effect legitimising illegal actions. MANY people have an issue with that. They disagree with you entirely.

Many people disagree with providing a service that will inevitably reduce death and injury from consuming adulterated drugs? The same drugs that would have otherwise been consumed anyway in a game of chance?

 

[scblack]

Nup.

Saying "these pills are illegal and dangerous, here's a list of ingredients for you to think about"
Is very different to saying "here's a list of ingredients, looks like there's no rat poison so go chow down as many of these as you want"


You're talking about perception vs what's actually being said. People are going to spin things to suit their agenda/narrative in all aspects of life.

Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk

Nup.

Thats just your perception of whats being said, to suit your agenda. Many people disagree with you due. Your opinion does not trump others.

We can go in circles forever here if you want.

 

[droenn]

also, just look at Spice in the UK and how that could probably be avoided by legalising weed..

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/06/spice-zombie-drug-devastating-communities
https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...-shows-why-we-should-legalise-herbal-cannabis

 

[indica]

Is that possible or is that the pipeline dream in a fairy land full of rainbows and unicorns?

that is what i would like to think would be the inevitable consequence

 

[teK--]

Break out the popcorn and take note of what's happening with Cannabis in Canada and certain US states. That might give some ideas on how to handle it(??)

I've wondered about this. I am watching a doctor where the driver smokes a cone and then drives. He is a regular heavy smoker and needs a pull just to feel normal.. most other people probably won't be ok to drive after a cone.

 

[Dales Cannon]

There is more than one agenda here.

1. Stop illicit drug use
2. Stop harmful use of legal drugs and alcohol
3. Since the above has proven too hard lets try and minimise deaths from impure substances.

And likely others.

Arguing that 3 encourages 1 seems silly to me. Likewise 2 is not impacted (probably) by 1 or 3.

Doing 3 is not condoning drug use but simply giving better information to the user. Users are going to use. For example no one would worry if people had an avenue to test for methanol content in home brewed alcohols. Drinking alcohol is legal and the idea is to stop people being blinded by bad hooch. It doesnt say this shit grandpa made from old potatoes and dirty jocks is the shit, drink as much as you can. What is different with pill testing?

 

[indica]

grandpa made from old potatoes

love predictive text

 

[Scotty T]

Users are going to use. For example no one would worry if people had an avenue to test for methanol content in home brewed alcohols. Drinking alcohol is legal and the idea is to stop people being blinded by bad hooch. It doesnt say this shit grandpa made from old potatoes and dirty jocks is the shit, drink as much as you can. What is different with pill testing?

Excellent analogy. Except it is illegal to home distil spirits in Australia because of methanol. I wonder if it is actually illegal to possess and consume home made spirits?

Those who are worried about pill testing legitimising illegal behaviour I would assume would also be worried about testing illegal alcohol, because illegal.

 

[caad9]

I live in a court that has half a dozen houses, of those, 3 are taken up by some pretty ordinary characters, with at least 2 of them selling drugs at any given time. Whilst I do think the idea of pill testing is very valid, I'd also love for the rainbow/unicorn scenario where these scumbags can't make money from selling D-Grade drugs and my court becomes the quiet little suburban hideout it should be!

It is extraordinary what we are witness to in our court and despite raids every 8 weeks or so, nothing ever happens.

Sorry for heading off on a tangent, but I feel the scenarios being discussed could help a lot more people than the drug taking populace in the long run

 

[Plankosaurus]

Nup.

Thats just your perception of whats being said, to suit your agenda. Many people disagree with you due. Your opinion does not trump others.

We can go in circles forever here if you want.

I don't actually know what they say to people when they get pills tested, so I'll concede a 'fair enuff' to you in the absence of any actual info.
I find it incredibly hard to believe that they'd be anything other than super careful with what they say though. it would be a nightmare legally if they told people to go forth and munch.


But my point stands. You are talking about perception vs reality.

Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk

 

[droenn]

At pill testing, user submits a sample (entire pill, or scraping at user's choice. Larger sample = more accurate result).

If it tests for ecstasy, they'll give a white result and tell you there is a risk it could contain other products (that aren't in library for testing (which is over 30,000 chemicals), they'll also advise MDMA can be hazardous to your health and the risks associated with taking it.

If it gets a yellow label, its not what is expected (MDMA), and they'll tell you what has been detected (e.g. paint etc)

If it gets a red label: it is not what is expected (MDMA) and could belong to a category of drug that is known to cause deaths.


source: https://www.abc.net.au/radio/sydney/programs/drive/david-caldicott/10602846

Couple more links that clear up some of the misunderstandings:

Overwhelming majority of voters support pill-testing – Guardian Essential poll

Model where counsellors provide risk-reduction advice backed by 63% of sample

www.theguardian.com

How do recent claims about pill testing stack up against the evidence?

The pill testing debate seems louder than ever. We look at recent claims from politicians, commentators and experts — and put them to the test.

www.abc.net.au

It also important to remember that pill testing also gives information on what types of drugs are out there in circulation, and this better helps inform health care professionals when there are things like overdoses and what appropriate treatment actions can be taken.

 

[pink poodle]

Nup.

That's what YOU want to feel pill testing is about. Other people feel differently. Simple as that.

It is in effect legitimising illegal actions. MANY people have an issue with that. They disagree with you entirely.

Then they have chosen to not understand what pill testing is. They probably also disagree with safe injecting rooms, sex education, free condoms, and the choice to have an abortion.