A broken system... (Bourke Street Incident Related)

[pink poodle]

but time and time again you see instances where someone who is dangerous is released into the community time and time again. Jill Meagher is another instance that comes to mind.

Time and time again...or do you mean these tragic events happen sporadically and so irregularly that they shock the nation? While this, and other similar events are terrible and something it would be nice to live without, they arent something we hear about too often (fortunately).

What are you (being any of us) doing in our own communities that helps break down these cycles of violence? It's easy to sit back and point fingers, but how have you engaged with people who are likely to conduct such an offence? Are people forming lynch mobs or support groups? Is there a vigilante presence? Perhaps your neighbourhood has a felon mentoring network? Or something else happening? If you feel strongly about preventing this kind of thing being repeated, be engaged in a solution rather than just asking big brother to solve the problem.

 

[Kerplunk]

Danny Green has started already...

View attachment 334946

Absolute tragedy, sympathies and thoughts for everyone affected.

Hindsight is a great thing, I would hate to be a magistrate making these decisions on a daily basis.

Yeah it's a tough gig. It could be made way easy for the magistrate/community if the gov introduced mandatory sentencing for repeat offenders for serious violent crime. Magistrate discretion should be removed (or heavily scrutinised) and the maximum sentence imposed. Eg Bertie rapes Martha and gets 2 years jail. He gets out and a year later rapes Darla.. He rolls up to court and gets found guilty and the maximum sentence is imposed on the spot. Bertie had his chance, he had 2 years of rehab to 'get' what he did was wrong. But he doesn't learn because he doesn't give a shit and does what he wants.
This system could have stopped a lot of well known offenders who progressively got worse each time they repeat offend.

 

[Kerplunk]

Time and time again...or do you mean these tragic events happen sporadically and so irregularly that they shock the nation? While this, and other similar events are terrible and something it would be nice to live without, they arent something we hear about too often (fortunately).

What are you (being any of us) doing in our own communities that helps break down these cycles of violence? It's easy to sit back and point fingers, but how have you engaged with people who are likely to conduct such an offence? Are people forming lynch mobs or support groups? Is there a vigilante presence? Perhaps your neighbourhood has a felon mentoring network? Or something else happening? If you feel strongly about preventing this kind of thing being repeated, be engaged in a solution rather than just asking big brother to solve the problem.

Unfortunately poodle there are some real loose cannons that still go off the rails, even with all the love and support in the world.
Not saying we should lynch them, but negotiating with them is also extremely difficult.
Unfortunately, if you look at most serious violent offenders there is a history of progression. Especially with rapists becoming murderers.
The majority crims that commit serious violent indescriminate acts have long track records.

 

[MARKL]

I don't know what the answer is, I have been through the system with people that have had to fight to avoid jail time for the most minor (as in made up didn't happen) first time offence, yet fuckwits like this seem to get out all the time?

Or, given how easy it is to get in a car and drive it at people, maybe they do get it right much of the time? Yes there will always be exceptions but thankfully these things happen rarely.

 

[pharmaboy]

Unfortunately poodle there are some real loose cannons that still go off the rails, even with all the love and support in the world.
Not saying we should lynch them, but negotiating with them is also extremely difficult.
Unfortunately, if you look at most serious violent offenders there is a history of progression. Especially with rapists becoming murderers.
The majority crims that commit serious violent indescriminate acts have long track records.

Gee, perhaos you could support that outlandish statement with some numbers?

I suspect you are using hindsight, it's blatantly obvious that if you look at a murderer, that they stand a good chance of having an escalating history - it doesn't follow at all however that a person in front of a judge with a violent crime is going to become a murderer in time.

 

[pharmaboy]

Time and time again...or do you mean these tragic events happen sporadically and so irregularly that they shock the nation? While this, and other similar events are terrible and something it would be nice to live without, they arent something we hear about too often (fortunately).

Hit nail on head

Australians seem to have no idea how bloody fortunate they are and how safe they are from random crime, either in comparison to elsewhere or to times gone by. The clear fact that meagher is remembered or that this crime is shocking is absolute testament to that.

Danny green is like Donald trump - they let their emotions cloud their ability to think things through

 

[golden path]

I will be interested to see what else comes out in the wash about this bloke, and what is revealed about why the bail justice gave him bail, if he was in a "show cause" situation and bail was opposed.

One thing is certain, that the actions of everyone who dealt with him in his last few contacts with psych services and the police, will be very closely scrutinised by the homicide squad and the coroner and a judge and jury.

That being the case, the fact remains that ultimately the real blame for this, at the end of it all, lies fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the person who did it.

My own observations over the years as someone who has a bit to do with "the system", is that law and order becomes more about social engineering than law enforcement, whenever Labor is in power here.

Except maybe when it comes to traffic fines because for a government, those things are like a sugar addiction.

 

[safreek]

this person has no right to live any more, the minute he made the choice to run over innocent people he gave up that right. A lot of people are blaming the system but the fact is he made a choice to murder 5 people.
He may have an ice addled mind or he may have had mental problems but none of that really matters, personal responsibility people.
For to long have we allowed people to get away with all sorts of bad behaviour with excuses or medical reasons, its about time the mental health system has a good hard look at themselves as they are the makers of excuses for these people. If they know a person is truely capable of this sort of thing they need to report it and it needs to be acted on, one persons rights don't outweigh the rights of innocent people going about their lives.
As a general rule I don't believe in capital punishment but in these cases I do, there is no doubt he did it regardless of the reasons so yes, summary execution is called for. All the bleeding hearts out there probably think martin Bryant and his kind deserve to live, I don't, simple.

 

[Kerplunk]

Gee, perhaos you could support that outlandish statement with some numbers?

I suspect you are using hindsight, it's blatantly obvious that if you look at a murderer, that they stand a good chance of having an escalating history - it doesn't follow at all however that a person in front of a judge with a violent crime is going to become a murderer in time.

Outlandish? Do you know what the classification of violent *serious* offender is? ie a repeat offender, random attacks, history of violence etc.. a la Dupas, Bailey, William John Watkins etc.. With this type of offender there is a progression in their attacks, esp against women. In every case rape was involved in their younger years...

I'm not saying this bloke is in this league. But if there is a history of violence, that is ignored by a magistrate, then questions should be asked.

 

[Jesterarts]

Time and time again...or do you mean these tragic events happen sporadically and so irregularly that they shock the nation? While this, and other similar events are terrible and something it would be nice to live without, they arent something we hear about too often (fortunately).

What are you (being any of us) doing in our own communities that helps break down these cycles of violence? It's easy to sit back and point fingers, but how have you engaged with people who are likely to conduct such an offence? Are people forming lynch mobs or support groups? Is there a vigilante presence? Perhaps your neighbourhood has a felon mentoring network? Or something else happening? If you feel strongly about preventing this kind of thing being repeated, be engaged in a solution rather than just asking big brother to solve the problem.

Come live in the Cranbourne area. Then tell me how "sporadic" these events are.

Or go have a chat with a detective.

Just because you don't see it on TV, doesn't mean it's not happening everyday.

 

[Freediver]

yeah, some douche in Cranbourne kills five people every day. It just doesn't get reported. You don't know anything Poodle.

 

[Jesterarts]

yeah, some douche in Cranbourne kills five people every day. It just doesn't get reported. You don't know anything Poodle.

So the only time they is an issue is if multiple people are killed?

The events like what happened bring the flaws of our justice system back into the spotlight, but the day to day issues go under the radar.

Every day there are assaults, burglaries, sexual assaults and thefts. And time and time the offender is a re-offender out on bail/parole.

This is the result of a broken system.

Doesn't all have to be about murder or high profile events.

 

[Kerplunk]

Interesting,
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/b...-associations-ron-iddles-20170122-gtw7ih.html

An after hours bail Justice rather than a magistrate decided to give Jimmy bail.

 

[T.3]

Hit nail on head

Australians seem to have no idea how bloody fortunate they are and how safe they are from random crime, either in comparison to elsewhere or to times gone by. The clear fact that meagher is remembered or that this crime is shocking is absolute testament to that.

Danny green is like Donald trump - they let their emotions cloud their ability to think things through

Perhaps you could support that statement with some numbers?

 

[Tubbsy]

Stats are here:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime

 

[madstace]

It's good to see some sense added to this thread, but there's also still a worrying level of acceptance and apologising for a system that continually spits out offenders that have habitual, repeated histories of violent and dangerous crimes. Just because this level of tragedy isn't in the news doesn't mean there aren't regular occurrences of offenders allowed to be freed on bail while they present a threat to the public. Ask any cop who's arrested a repeat drink driver (sometimes with kids in the car) only to see them bailed once again what they think of the system. Sometimes its just good fortune that these fuckwits don't manage to hurt more people, but I'd rather a better system that more adequately protects the innocent-majority public from this type of offender.

As for those that argue that those who don't like it should do something about, it's a lot easier said that done given how our political system works. However these events do typically instigate some grassroots level petitioning and there's currently a good one on Change.org which I would urge people to sign. Otherwise, I don't think it's a terribly big ask that politicians do what they can to keep law abiding citizens safe, where they are logical and non freedom-impinging solutions that require no more than the legislative process and a better allocation of consolidated revenue.

 

[placebo]

The system isn't broken. It's got a fair degree of tolerance, forgiveness, and faith that people when checked can actually change enough to be rehabilitated into society. Some people can't, and that's the trade off. It's just when something bad happens there's a bunch of people with the first reaction of peeing their pants and calling for the implementation of a totalitarian police state, and the torture then execution of people without even a trial. That's not the sort of society we should aspire to become.

 

[madstace]

The system isn't broken. It's got a fair degree of tolerance, forgiveness, and faith that people when checked can actually change enough to be rehabilitated into society. Some people can't, and that's the trade off. It's just when something bad happens there's a bunch of people with the first reaction of peeing their pants and calling for the implementation of a totalitarian police state, and the torture then execution of people without even a trial. That's not the sort of society we should aspire to become.

I doubt anyone who's perturbed by recent events is arguing for that, only those in power have anything to gain by it anyway. Again it seems some people can't see there are systemic failures which result in these types of events. That's where the system is broken. I've no doubt that those who forget their pocket bible on a bad day do deserve rehabilitation, but it's these repeat offenders who flout the law that needs harsh and long term penalties applied.

Personally I don't get the rationale of offering compassion to these arseholes. Where's the compassion for the victims of crime? How many people keep singing this tune when they're personally affected by violent crime?.....

 

[Haakon]

The system isn't broken. It's got a fair degree of tolerance, forgiveness, and faith that people when checked can actually change enough to be rehabilitated into society. Some people can't, and that's the trade off. It's just when something bad happens there's a bunch of people with the first reaction of peeing their pants and calling for the implementation of a totalitarian police state, and the torture then execution of people without even a trial. That's not the sort of society we should aspire to become.

Didn't even read the rest of the thread, but that is quite possible the most sensible thing I have yet seen written on this forum on any subject.

Humans are what they are - unpredictable and pretty average on average, but occasionally capable of change and being decent to each other. A shit situation all round in the city yesterday, but there is no system in the world and there never will be that can stop the nutters and yet provide some opportunity for those who fucked up in their lives make a change.

Where the balance in currently sitting at in Australia is an entirely different matter - I'm not in law enforcement or the law so I'll leave judgement on such things to those better qualified. It seems that he shouldn't have been on the street, but with all possible compassion for those affected (including the poor bastards involved in the decision to grant him bail who might have thought it was ok at the time) bad stuff happens all the time and we just cant anticipate everything. Beyond that, I wasnt involved and I wasnt there so my opinion is peripheral at best.

The alternative is the world we're probably looking at in america in the near future.

 

[Boom King]

The system isn't broken. It's got a fair degree of tolerance, forgiveness, and faith that people when checked can actually change enough to be rehabilitated into society. Some people can't, and that's the trade off. It's just when something bad happens there's a bunch of people with the first reaction of peeing their pants and calling for the implementation of a totalitarian police state, and the torture then execution of people without even a trial. That's not the sort of society we should aspire to become.

It's not broken but surely it could do with a coat of paint at least...http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/b...-associations-ron-iddles-20170122-gtw7ih.html