A broken system... (Bourke Street Incident Related)

[placebo]

I'm not defending the current system's failures, or arguing that it can't or shouldn't be improved, just reminding people to consider what would the failures of the alternative proposals look like?

The guiding principle of what we have currently:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone's_formulation

 

[redbruce]

Didn't even read the rest of the thread, but that is quite possible the most sensible thing I have yet seen written on this forum on any subject.

Humans are what they are - unpredictable and pretty average on average, but occasionally capable of change and being decent to each other. A shit situation all round in the city yesterday, but there is no system in the world and there never will be that can stop the nutters and yet provide some opportunity for those who fucked up in their lives make a change.

Where the balance in currently sitting at in Australia is an entirely different matter - I'm not in law enforcement or the law so I'll leave judgement on such things to those better qualified. It seems that he shouldn't have been on the street, but with all possible compassion for those affected (including the poor bastards involved in the decision to grant him bail who might have thought it was ok at the time) bad stuff happens all the time and we just cant anticipate everything. Beyond that, I wasnt involved and I wasnt there so my opinion is peripheral at best.

The alternative is the world we're probably looking at in america in the near future.

Agree, also with Placebo.

Not doubting things can and should be better (bail system for starters) , but there is a also practical reality we all need to face.

Poodle post #21 also salient. Not someones elses responsibility, ours collectively.

 

[Kerplunk]

I'm not defending the current system's failures, or arguing that it can't or shouldn't be improved, just reminding people to consider what would the failures of the alternative proposals look like?

The guiding principle of what we have currently:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone's_formulation

Don't think anyone that presenting a reasonable arguement wants an alternate proposal.. the current one works but needs a refresh often to still be relevant. The vic gov agrees and will be reviewing the bail system.

They probably need to go further and look at the other nets this bloke slipped through as well, such as mental/drug health services. Could be a good opportunity to inject some cash where it's needed..

I think the current system is fairly well designed for people who fk up and once off offend for various reasons. But system fails terribly when it comes to repeat offenders..

 

[wkkie]

The tools are in place keep these kind of people away when needed. The problem at times is some people think they are more important than the system and let that get their heads even after looking at, what is a lot of the time, a very straight forward picture.

 

[pharmaboy]

Interesting,
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/b...-associations-ron-iddles-20170122-gtw7ih.html

An after hours bail Justice rather than a magistrate decided to give Jimmy bail.

Interesting - probably not looking good for that experiment. I'm actually pretty amazed at what I just read.

I'm wondering what actual training or what qualifications these bail justices must have. Mores to the point, if it's voluntary, what sort of person is attracted to the position?

 

[bowtajzane]

"Vacuum bleed?"
:madgrin: :laser:
mad scientist by day,vigilante by night..........

 

[golden path]

The tools are in place keep these kind of people away when needed. The problem at times is some people think they are more important than the system and let that get their heads even after looking at, what is a lot of the time, a very straight forward picture.

The bail justice system has worked for many years, and in my experience what you say has some truth to it.

I've encountered bail justices who seem to think they are a magistrate, and who will even go so far as to comment on and question evidence. That is well outside their remit.

And go out of their way to seemingly assist a person with their bail application.

TBH, all that is really needed is for bail justices to be given no discretion in serious matters and cases of people on bail committing more serious offences on bail. Remand them to the next court day.

There is no cure-all for this issue and magistrates have, and will, bail people who will go on to commit further offences.

The same as dangerous people keep getting out of prison to reoffend. Like Jill Meagher's and Sarah Cafferky's killers.

Mistakes and misjudgements will always occur and people can be unpredictable, BUT when someone has a significant history of violence, reoffending and breaching bail, IMO the protection of society needs to be the main concern.

 

[Travis22]

Interesting - probably not looking good for that experiment. I'm actually pretty amazed at what I just read.

I'm wondering what actual training or what qualifications these bail justices must have. Mores to the point, if it's voluntary, what sort of person is attracted to the position?

Guys were talking about this on the weekend, similar to JP's i think... Sure enough, just found this on the JP's website:



Bail Justice volunteers play an important role in the justice system and provide a valuable and accessible service which is unique to Victoria.

The role of Bail Justice volunteers includes conducting:

after-hours bail
remand hearings in respect of adults who are held in police custody under the Bail Act 1977
remand hearings involving children who are held in police custody and applications for Interim Accommodation Orders under the Children, Youth and Families Act 2005.
Similar to Justice of the Peace volunteers, Bail Justice volunteers also have the power to witness statutory declarations and receive affidavits within Victoria.

Bail Justice volunteers are appointed by the Governor in Council under section 14 of the Honorary Justices Act 2014.

Key accountabilities

Bail Justice volunteers are part of a collective group known as Honorary Justices and as such, there is an expectation that all Bail Justice volunteers will respect, observe and adhere to the highest levels of personal, social and community standards of integrity and professionalism to ensure that all Victorians are provided with an independent, fair and impartial service.

Bail Justice volunteers have a responsibility to make themselves available to conduct after-hours bail and remand hearings in respect or adults and children, and hearings for Interim Accommodation Orders.

Eligibility

There are no specific qualifications required to become a Bail Justice volunteer in Victoria. However, to be considered for appointment, Bail Justice volunteers must meet a number of eligibility criteria:

be between 18 and 70 years of age
be an Australian citizen
not be an insolvent under administration.
Applicants must also satisfy the Attorney-General that they:

have satisfactorily completed the course of training prescribed for appointment as a Justice of the Peace
are fluent in the English language
ordinarily reside in Victoria
are a fit and proper person to be appointed as a Bail Justice.
Key selection criteria

Technical skills

Prior to being appointed, all Bail Justice volunteers are required to successfully complete the Bail Justice Training Program to demonstrate a high level of technical ability to:

conduct after-hours hearings
understand and apply the legislative framework within which Bail Justices operate.
Knowledge and skills

Strong interpersonal skills
Conflict management skills
Initiative and flexibility
Confident decision making skills
Commitment to service delivery
Commitment to volunteering
Empathy and cultural awareness
Ability to display professionalism and discipline at all times and in difficult situations.
Important information

Bail Justice volunteers should be active members of the community who demonstrate a willingness and passion for assisting other members of the community, and are required to:

adhere to the Code of Conduct for Honorary Justices.
be reasonably available to perform the duties of a Bail Justice
undertake and successfully complete training and professional development within identified timeframes.
All appointments are subject to the following checks:

National Police Record Check
Australian Securities and Investment Commission Search
Insolvency and Trustee Service Australia Search.
Submit an expression of interest

The Honorary Justice Office has introduced an expression of interest process for all new Bail Justice applications.

For more information, see Become a Justice of the Peace or Bail Justice.

 

[Kerplunk]

TBH, all that is really needed is for bail justices to be given no discretion in serious matters and cases of people on bail committing more serious offences on bail. Remand them to the next court day.

There is no cure-all for this issue and magistrates have, and will, bail people who will go on to commit further offences.

The same as dangerous people keep getting out of prison to reoffend. Like Jill Meagher's and Sarah Cafferky's killers.

Mistakes and misjudgements will always occur and people can be unpredictable, BUT when someone has a significant history of violence, reoffending and breaching bail, IMO the protection of society needs to be the main concern.

Bail Justices cannot allow bail for murder, there is no discretion there. But that's all I think...

Heard the premier on the radio it sounds like bail justices will be gone asap anyway.

 

[richie_gt]

Was the bloke on something when this happened? (i.e. ice?) Occasionally I see people just acting completely irrationally (including driving) and I can only come to the conclusion they're on something!

Whether this guy should of been locked up or not to prevent this happening is open for debate. It's not the fault of the police, I know they struggle to deal with repeat offenders because unless the case is strong enough these people just keep getting bailed and are allowed back on the street! Must be a very frustrating system to work with!

Whatever the case it's a terrible event that's happened!

 

[Flow-Rider]

Was the bloke on something when this happened? (i.e. ice?) Occasionally I see people just acting completely irrationally (including driving) and I can only come to the conclusion they're on something!

Even if a drug user has stopped it can cause a chemical imbalance in their brain for life. Some people can be treated with medication and some people not. Schizophrenia and bi-polar are some of the end results.

 

[Haakon]

Even if a drug user has stopped it can cause a chemical imbalance in their brain for life. Some people can be treated with medication and some people not. Schizophrenia and bi-polar are some of the end results.

Its a tough one. They can be fine most of the time and for long periods, and are often in the care of family.

Once had a housemate back in uni days who had the schizophrenia switch flipped by too many pills and bongs - he progressivly got very weird, and one day got violent. I had him charged to get him out of the house and he ended up with his poor parents.

Couple of years later I was watching the news and he'd been shot and killed by a young constable during a seige situation at his parent's house. Really sad. His parents had been trying their best to care for him, and the system had allowed them the opportunity to try. Maybe he'd still be alive and that constable's life/career not wrecked from killing someone had he being forcibly incarcerated.

But maybe not... His parents were probably the best people to help him.

So we're back to - there are no silver bullets here. Even for the people we already know are "damaged"...

 

[mtb1611]

You are right, the judge is working within a system that allows bail.

However, at the end of the day, he or she should be accountant for their decisions. This case has again put things in the spotlight, but time and time again you see instances where someone who is dangerous is released into the community time and time again. Jill Meagher is another instance that comes to mind.

We don't have all the facts, this is true, so cannot really comment on what additional information was available. But I cannot fathom additional facts would make allowing a extremely violent, repeat offended who was displaying in increasingly agitated and phycotic behaviour out into the community. And to top it off, against the advice of police.

The current system can't cope with every offender being incarcerated, that is also true. But "the jail is too full, lets cut him lose" should not be reason enough.

If the system can't cope, the system is broken.

I have no idea what the solution is, as the problem is too complex and big. But there has to be some accountability for those who make the call, when they get it wrong.

Very well put Jesterarts, agree 100% on all counts. I think a lack of accountability - regardless of context - essentially creates an environment where people can afford to become selfish and complacent in their decision-making, safe in the knowledge that there will be no direct adverse consequences for them.

 

[mtb1611]

Didn't even read the rest of the thread, but that is quite possible the most sensible thing I have yet seen written on this forum on any subject.

Humans are what they are - unpredictable and pretty average on average, but occasionally capable of change and being decent to each other. A shit situation all round in the city yesterday, but there is no system in the world and there never will be that can stop the nutters and yet provide some opportunity for those who fucked up in their lives make a change.

Where the balance in currently sitting at in Australia is an entirely different matter - I'm not in law enforcement or the law so I'll leave judgement on such things to those better qualified. It seems that he shouldn't have been on the street, but with all possible compassion for those affected (including the poor bastards involved in the decision to grant him bail who might have thought it was ok at the time) bad stuff happens all the time and we just cant anticipate everything. Beyond that, I wasnt involved and I wasnt there so my opinion is peripheral at best.

The alternative is the world we're probably looking at in america in the near future.

Highlighted quote sums it up well; regardless of any system, people are people and as such there's no "one size fits all" model to adequately and objectively take into account the millions of variables in personality.

 

[Knuckles]

Highlighted quote sums it up well; regardless of any system, people are people and as such there's no "one size fits all" model to adequately and objectively take into account the millions of variables in personality.

Are you discounting the joy that is a Totalitarian regime?

But, yep. Laws and systems are put into place for the 99%. However there will always be the 1% who will be outside the norm, if we adjust our legal system to target these abhorrent dickheads, it will be the rest of us who are penalised. Can't imagine anyone who would accept being remanded without bail because their neighbor decided their music was too loud.

#knuckleswasadrunkenchunt

 

[Flow-Rider]

Its a tough one. They can be fine most of the time and for long periods, and are often in the care of family.

Once had a housemate back in uni days who had the schizophrenia switch flipped by too many pills and bongs - he progressivly got very weird, and one day got violent. I had him charged to get him out of the house and he ended up with his poor parents.

Couple of years later I was watching the news and he'd been shot and killed by a young constable during a seige situation at his parent's house. Really sad. His parents had been trying their best to care for him, and the system had allowed them the opportunity to try. Maybe he'd still be alive and that constable's life/career not wrecked from killing someone had he being forcibly incarcerated.

But maybe not... His parents were probably the best people to help him.

So we're back to - there are no silver bullets here. Even for the people we already know are "damaged"...

Sounds pretty consistent with what I've experienced also. I've got no idea why some people I knew went down that path because they weren't the type you would expect to do drugs and had a bright future ahead of themselves.

Highlighted quote sums it up well; regardless of any system, people are people and as such there's no "one size fits all" model to adequately and objectively take into account the millions of variables in personality.

People will always find and make ways to slip through the net.

 

[Haakon]

Sounds pretty consistent with what I've experienced also. I've got no idea why some people I knew went down that path because they weren't the type you would expect to do drugs and had a bright future ahead of themselves.
.

I've known a lot of people take more drugs than he did and be relatively ok (a girl I knew in my 3rd year organic chemistry at uni used to have 3 bongs before a major exam worth 50% of the unit and she would come out with an HD!!), but some people are built with the switch I think...

 

[Haakon]

Are you discounting the joy that is a Totalitarian regime?

I'd make a great dictator. I'd need a bloody long wall though....

 

[Knuckles]

I've known a lot of people take more drugs than he did and be relatively ok (a girl I knew in my 3rd year organic chemistry at uni used to have 3 bongs before a major exam worth 50% of the unit and she would come out with an HD!!), but some people are built with the switch I think...

Organic chemistry? The bongs were the practical component.

#knuckleswasadrunkenchunt

 

[Beej1]

Similar to what appears to be most people in this thread, I also believe the justice system has it's problems.

But I'm absolutely sure there were multiple failures in care between the birth of this guy and the events that occurred on Bourke St. He certainly wasn't born this way.

If there are going to be 'sweeping reforms' put in place following this, I certainly hope it's more than just making the bail system more rigorous.