A broken system... (Bourke Street Incident Related)

[Dozer]

If there are going to be 'sweeping reforms' put in place following this, I certainly hope it's more than just making the bail system more rigorous.

I've not got a clue what a prison cell is like or what a jail life involves but one sure thing is that I have not got an essential fear of it and only shake my head when I hear f some of the care that is taken to provide a place for in-mates. Don't get me wrong, there are probably decent people in jail but for fucks sake, how about making our jails something to be really scared of? It's supposed to be a place to punish people and bore the shit out of them to deter future crime and condemn the bad decision makers. Surely instilling some sort of fear into a potential criminal would be a good defense? I imagine there'd be some rough shit go on in a jail but making it a scary prospect would deter someone with half a brain.

 

[redbruce]

Deterrence is a complicated issue.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.vic.g...prisonment Deter A Review of the Evidence.pdf

 

[wavike]

I've not got a clue what a prison cell is like or what a jail life involves but one sure thing is that I have not got an essential fear of it and only shake my head when I hear f some of the care that is taken to provide a place for in-mates. Don't get me wrong, there are probably decent people in jail but for fucks sake, how about making our jails something to be really scared of? It's supposed to be a place to punish people and bore the shit out of them to deter future crime and condemn the bad decision makers. Surely instilling some sort of fear into a potential criminal would be a good defense? I imagine there'd be some rough shit go on in a jail but making it a scary prospect would deter someone with half a brain.

A quick search shows about 1/2 prisoners have mental health issue. Society can't stop people with known health issues caused by smoking and obesity, no threat of prison is going to have any deterrent on the 50% with mental health issues. Most of the other 50% would probably sustain mental health issues from severe punishment.
Answers - I don't have any. Governments have the option of spending on preventative health, but don't. Just try and find a space for treatment for someone with mental health issues.
Three seriously ill teenagers died despite the Queensland Government receiving repeated warnings about the dangers of closing a specialised mental health facility for young people in Brisbane, government documents reveal. At least these poor souls didn't take out anybody else with them, but ???

People with mental illnesses are greatly overrepresented in our prisons. Prisoners are two to three times as likely as those in the community to have a mental illness and are ten to 15 times more likely to have a psychotic disorder. Our research suggests one in three people taken into police custody are likely to be receiving psychiatric treatment at the time. If you include those with a substance misuse disorder, the numbers increase even further.


Mental health of prison entrants
Almost half of prison entrants (49%) reported having been told by a health professional that they have a mental health disorder, and more than 1 in 4 (27%) reported currently being on medication for a mental health disorder.
Reporting a history of mental health problems was more common among female (62%) than male entrants (47%). Consistent with this, a higher proportion of females than males were currently on medication for a mental health disorder (37% and 25%, respectively).
Eighteen percent of the youngest prison entrants (aged under 25) reported currently taking mental health related medication compared with at least 28% of older entrants (those aged 25 or over).

 

[Beej1]

I imagine there'd be some rough shit go on in a jail but making it a scary prospect would deter someone with half a brain.

I've never spent time with anyone who's been to jail (or at least admitted as such). My wife works in rehab with a lot of people who are on their way to jail - and most often not for the first time.

I've heard stories about people who've simply never had a chance at life - born to drug addicted parents and then sexually/psychologically abused from day dot, themselves eventually using and becoming addicted to drugs to mask the pain of the trauma that is simply living. Often pimped out at a young age, or given heroin/meth so young that their brains are simply never going to properly develop to the point they can really fathom how the world works or be a regular member of society as we know it.

The prospect of being locked up to these folk would be different than it would to you and I. Certainly not as scary anyway.

None of this excuses what happened. But overhauling the way offenders are bailed feels like it's fixing the very thin final layer of a much deeper problem.

 

[wkkie]

I've not got a clue what a prison cell is like or what a jail life involves but one sure thing is that I have not got an essential fear of it and only shake my head when I hear f some of the care that is taken to provide a place for in-mates. Don't get me wrong, there are probably decent people in jail but for fucks sake, how about making our jails something to be really scared of? It's supposed to be a place to punish people and bore the shit out of them to deter future crime and condemn the bad decision makers. Surely instilling some sort of fear into a potential criminal would be a good defense? I imagine there'd be some rough shit go on in a jail but making it a scary prospect would deter someone with half a brain.

This... And make them work. They should building and repairing roads and working on other government projects.

 

[placebo]

This... And make them work. They should building and repairing roads and working on other government projects.

As an SME employer, no one wants someone serving a term for psychological or drug induced violence anywhere near themselves or their employees. I don't think we should be giving people guilty of vehicular murder heavy earth moving equipment. There should be treatment and education for this, not some stupid tax credit or bogus scheme to dump these people on legitimate businesses.

 

[golden path]

Mass escape from Malmsbury juvenile justice facility this arvo. Car jackings, fuel thefts and car chases.


Law and order under Labor.

 

[Freediver]

Mass escape from Malmsbury juvenile justice facility this arvo. Car jackings, fuel thefts and car chases.


Law and order under Labor.

And the liberals were different, there was no crime under Baillieu or Napthine. Get your news from someone other than Murdoch.

 

[golden path]

LOL. I don't rely on the news for my info...


I know a bit about it mate, I've worked in the field for many years and since the Christine Nixon era police have gone softer and softer.

Labor is all about feelgood rubbish, social engineering and appeasing the unemployed and loony leftist types that vote for them.

The judiciary were stacked with civil libber types by Hulls, under Labor.

Things always seem to get worse with regard to law and order the more sway the Left have.

 

[pharmaboy]

I've not got a clue what a prison cell is like or what a jail life involves but one sure thing is that I have not got an essential fear of it and only shake my head when I hear f some of the care that is taken to provide a place for in-mates. Don't get me wrong, there are probably decent people in jail but for fucks sake, how about making our jails something to be really scared of? It's supposed to be a place to punish people and bore the shit out of them to deter future crime and condemn the bad decision makers. Surely instilling some sort of fear into a potential criminal would be a good defense? I imagine there'd be some rough shit go on in a jail but making it a scary prospect would deter someone with half a brain.

Remember that you come from the side of normality where such things do scare you, you are able to give fore thought before you do something etc. you can't assume that rationality plays much of a role here - lost of crimes have a background where thinking about what happens on Tuesday is too much planning.

The reason we try and at least be humane, is to also reflect on the rest of the community what humane is - hard to know whether society reflects prison or prison reflects society, but the various states in the US provide plenty of examples of societies you might not want to live in, and it's hard not to notice how badly they treat prisoners and that this doesn't lead to less incarceration.

 

[indica]

It's okay, he was a closet gay.

“One night when we were out at a venue ... I leaned over to kiss Angelo, not realising it was Jimmy, and kissed Jimmy,” said Mr Schembri, a sales manager. “He wanted it to go further, he wanted me to come home with him. I believe there was something there, maybe he was in the closet.”

 

[Kerplunk]

I've not got a clue what a prison cell is like or what a jail life involves but one sure thing is that I have not got an essential fear of it and only shake my head when I hear f some of the care that is taken to provide a place for in-mates. Don't get me wrong, there are probably decent people in jail but for fucks sake, how about making our jails something to be really scared of? It's supposed to be a place to punish people and bore the shit out of them to deter future crime and condemn the bad decision makers. Surely instilling some sort of fear into a potential criminal would be a good defense? I imagine there'd be some rough shit go on in a jail but making it a scary prospect would deter someone with half a brain.

I agree with most of what you say.. But a lot research shows the main deterrent to a crime is the fear of being caught, rather than the fear of punishment.. Get the two right and you have a winning formula.

A huge chunk society will try it on if there is little chance of being caught. A vanilla example would be torrenting GOT..

 

[wkkie]

As an SME employer, no one wants someone serving a term for psychological or drug induced violence anywhere near themselves or their employees. I don't think we should be giving people guilty of vehicular murder heavy earth moving equipment. There should be treatment and education for this, not some stupid tax credit or bogus scheme to dump these people on legitimate businesses.

There's no way you'd put them in any heavy machinery! straight out hard labour.

 

[placebo]

Are you discounting the joy that is a Totalitarian regime?

The best argument against a police state is a five minute conversation with the average police officer.

 

[golden path]

See there's the thing.....people want to know why dangerous criminals are on the streets, why courts aren't imposing strong sentences, why police are becoming more and more limp wristed, and then it's suddenly all about the place becoming a "police state."

 

[Asininedrivel]

Remember that you come from the side of normality where such things do scare you, you are able to give fore thought before you do something etc. you can't assume that rationality plays much of a role here - lost of crimes have a background where thinking about what happens on Tuesday is too much planning.

The reason we try and at least be humane, is to also reflect on the rest of the community what humane is - hard to know whether society reflects prison or prison reflects society, but the various states in the US provide plenty of examples of societies you might not want to live in, and it's hard not to notice how badly they treat prisoners and that this doesn't lead to less incarceration.

May as well take this a bit further, since I think the solution may lie with examining broader social issues beyond a carrot/stick arrangement of bail/incarceration.

Coming from a privileged background (never wanted for anything as a child, parents loved me etc. etc.) I've had minimal exposure to how the truly disadvantaged see the world, and have had minimal sympathy for their often seemingly inexplicable choices as a result. This article was really interesting, and has shone a lot of light on that whole "lack of forethought, next Tuesday is too much planning" discussed above for me, as well as injecting some probably much needed empathy:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business...-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/?utm_source=fbb

 

[Flow-Rider]

There's no way you'd put them in any heavy machinery! straight out hard labour.

They actually do make them work in Qld correctional centres. They have industrial washing machines and wash things like hospital linen, the low risk crims are allowed to go out and work for companies. They used to give them push bikes to ride to work.

 

[golden path]

Also plenty of info on the effects of crime, and particularly violent crime on victims - if folks are wanting to feel empathy for someone....

 

[Kerplunk]

May as well take this a bit further, since I think the solution may lie with examining broader social issues beyond a carrot/stick arrangement of bail/incarceration.

Coming from a privileged background (never wanted for anything as a child, parents loved me etc. etc.) I've had minimal exposure to how the truly disadvantaged see the world, and have had minimal sympathy for their often seemingly inexplicable choices as a result. This article was really interesting, and has shone a lot of light on that whole "lack of forethought, next Tuesday is too much planning" discussed above for me, as well as injecting some probably much needed empathy:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business...-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/?utm_source=fbb

The system has plenty of empathy. It is designed to give people a break and a chance to renew. When someone continues to fuck up in a non violent way the are directed towards systems that are meant to help rather than just punish. It's not perfect by any stretch but still at least exists..

When it comes violence, the system fails miserably.. I personally know of a cop who is completely fkd up from attending one horrific incident and can no longer work. The offender eventually got minimum sentence after fighting like hell even though he pleaded guilty.. Now he is happy working with random kids to diff women living life like nothing happened. The victims families are a mess and each day is a struggle.. Who deserves the empathy here? (The offender had a whopping record)
The system doesn't recognise the victims, it just applies 'the law'.. Even victim impact statements hold little weight in sentencing these days..
The system just gives too many chances before it finally catches up and the offender gets a whack of jail time.

 

[golden path]

It's not called the "Victim's justice System."

It's the "Criminal justice System." That should give a hint...


It's not easy to end up behind bars nowadays and people get several or more chances.

I think it's also a mistake to believe that all people can be rehabilitated. Many just go from one crime to another and in and out of prison, for most of their lives and leave a string of victims behind them.