Athiests: What will you say if we've got it wrong?
- Thread starter Techno Destructo
- Start date
scblack
Leucocholic
NO, people are not asking for God to do something.
What we are saying is, if he is so omnipotent, all-knowing and around us at ALL times - why not just show his face? Fix something? Show ANY sign. Anything at all.
Anthing but blind belief.
Vicious_Fishes
Banned
give us stuff & then condemn us to hell for using it eh ?
sounds like a logical thinking god...
why bother having free will if you're not allowed to use it anyways ?
sounds like a logical thinking god...
why bother having free will if you're not allowed to use it anyways ?
muzza167
Likes Dirt
Well said, but hey, 'the Lord moves in mysterious ways' - isn't that the way it goes?
nizai
Likes Dirt
And the 70 year gap between when Jesus was resurrected and when anyone wrote about him? Seems a long time for anyone to accept the amazement of god's work.
N
whywalkwhenucanroll
Likes Dirt
I did mean should God keep doing miracles periodically so that everyone will see and believe?
So Techno, you would believe, and tell the next guy, that’s good. So no doubt you’d try to use every means available to provide as much proof as you could so that 2000 years down the track people could look at it and know for sure it happened, right?
Things like video, tests, eye witnesses, confirmation that someone is dead by people who know, etc.
So would I. The thing is that’s what the apostles did. The problem is that there wasn’t the technology to take video recordings. But there was many eye witnesses and the Romans knew very well when someone was dead, they’re Romans. Also the account that when the soldiers stabbed Jesus with the spear and blood and water flowed is what happens after someone dies, not before. The blood emulsifies (think that’s the term).
My point is that if you wanted to record this stuff for the future by the best, most reliable means available at the time, what they did is it. Now, I agree that ancient written things must be taken with a pinch of salt for accuracy etc. I love Chinese Whispers… But there are a few things that add weight to the reliability of the bible. First is that scribes were payed as (part) of their job to copy or record documents/dictations as accurately as possible so this reduces the room for human error greatly if they took dictations from eye witnesses. Second is the Dead Sea Scrolls. They date from around Jesus’ time and before and are incredibly accurate when compared to the current Bible. Next, there are many other historical documents that record other events (Not to do with Jesus, other history) that were written hundreds of years after an event and only quote texts that were written at the event (which have never been found) and these are taken at their word. All of history (until better technology changed this) is recorded by people writing down what happened and using witnesses. There will always be opposition though. The Pharisees saw Jesus do miracles in front of them, they were experts in the Jewish Scripture and should have recognised him but they didn’t. They were too hung up on their power.
About the records of Jesus death and resurrection containing other miracles, well yes they do, but if that’s what happened then they would have to be recorded as well. None of the miracles Jesus performed come as a surprise when you look at them from the perspective that he is God.
Also the New Testament, being written at a very different time to the Old Testament, fulfils The Old perfectly. The entire Old Testament displays God and points to Jesus.
About modern miracles, have you ever researched on this or gone looking for them? I haven’t specifically but I read things in the Voice of the Martyrs magazine every month that I think qualify, I’ve also seen the ‘cross and the switch blade’ (among other movies, though not read the book) which is a miraculous story in itself. Just the fact that there are countries where being a Christian is banned and people (and authorities) are violent towards Christians yet the churches in these places are always growing with more and more people having “blind faith” even though they risk their lives doing it is miraculous enough for me. Miracles don’t just have to be amazing occurrences that break the laws of naturally possible. If God is all powerful then he is more then capable of moving entire nations so that the circumstances are just right for a particular event to occur [naturally].
A little boy is worried about his brother. He’s been out all day and should have been back 2 hours ago. Mother is worried too. The little boy prays in his bed and asks God to look after his brother and to bring him back soon. As the boy says ‘Amen’ the phone rings. His brother is fine, he missed the train, he’ll be home soon. Mother tells the little boy and he is thankful to God for the answered prayer.
Not the most amazing story at all and could be brushed off as just sheer coincidence but it’s things like that happening all the time in the lives of Christians that makes them have faith.
TonyG: No I’m not per se. Technically I’m a 21year old Presbyterian brought up as a Christian with no impressive conversion story. My faith has been tested on numerous occasions (just reading this thread is one!) and I would say I’ve hit rock bottom and come out still believing in God and Jesus. I’ve done my fair share of joyous clapping, singing and all that too, you can’t keep it in sometimes, but I’m not one to run around in the streets praising God and not think about what I’m saying.
Andy.G: Pretty much what you said except the bit about God looking and going “Oh bugger! Better go ‘n help ‘em out again…” God doesn’t work like that. (Sorry if I’ve got your meaning a bit mixed up…)
Vicious_Fishes: Why have a free country like this and then say “Hey! You murdered that person, off to jail!” Extreme example I know, but I think it shows the parallel.
Nizai: I’m not a bible scholar or a historian so I can’t really argue with you here except to say why does it matter? The stuff was still written down by eye witnesses who’ve spent a lifetime telling people about it (I the case of the gospels).
P.s. sorry for the massive reply, these threads get away quick when you’ve been away for a day or two…
So Techno, you would believe, and tell the next guy, that’s good. So no doubt you’d try to use every means available to provide as much proof as you could so that 2000 years down the track people could look at it and know for sure it happened, right?
Things like video, tests, eye witnesses, confirmation that someone is dead by people who know, etc.
So would I. The thing is that’s what the apostles did. The problem is that there wasn’t the technology to take video recordings. But there was many eye witnesses and the Romans knew very well when someone was dead, they’re Romans. Also the account that when the soldiers stabbed Jesus with the spear and blood and water flowed is what happens after someone dies, not before. The blood emulsifies (think that’s the term).
My point is that if you wanted to record this stuff for the future by the best, most reliable means available at the time, what they did is it. Now, I agree that ancient written things must be taken with a pinch of salt for accuracy etc. I love Chinese Whispers… But there are a few things that add weight to the reliability of the bible. First is that scribes were payed as (part) of their job to copy or record documents/dictations as accurately as possible so this reduces the room for human error greatly if they took dictations from eye witnesses. Second is the Dead Sea Scrolls. They date from around Jesus’ time and before and are incredibly accurate when compared to the current Bible. Next, there are many other historical documents that record other events (Not to do with Jesus, other history) that were written hundreds of years after an event and only quote texts that were written at the event (which have never been found) and these are taken at their word. All of history (until better technology changed this) is recorded by people writing down what happened and using witnesses. There will always be opposition though. The Pharisees saw Jesus do miracles in front of them, they were experts in the Jewish Scripture and should have recognised him but they didn’t. They were too hung up on their power.
About the records of Jesus death and resurrection containing other miracles, well yes they do, but if that’s what happened then they would have to be recorded as well. None of the miracles Jesus performed come as a surprise when you look at them from the perspective that he is God.
Also the New Testament, being written at a very different time to the Old Testament, fulfils The Old perfectly. The entire Old Testament displays God and points to Jesus.
About modern miracles, have you ever researched on this or gone looking for them? I haven’t specifically but I read things in the Voice of the Martyrs magazine every month that I think qualify, I’ve also seen the ‘cross and the switch blade’ (among other movies, though not read the book) which is a miraculous story in itself. Just the fact that there are countries where being a Christian is banned and people (and authorities) are violent towards Christians yet the churches in these places are always growing with more and more people having “blind faith” even though they risk their lives doing it is miraculous enough for me. Miracles don’t just have to be amazing occurrences that break the laws of naturally possible. If God is all powerful then he is more then capable of moving entire nations so that the circumstances are just right for a particular event to occur [naturally].
A little boy is worried about his brother. He’s been out all day and should have been back 2 hours ago. Mother is worried too. The little boy prays in his bed and asks God to look after his brother and to bring him back soon. As the boy says ‘Amen’ the phone rings. His brother is fine, he missed the train, he’ll be home soon. Mother tells the little boy and he is thankful to God for the answered prayer.
Not the most amazing story at all and could be brushed off as just sheer coincidence but it’s things like that happening all the time in the lives of Christians that makes them have faith.
TonyG: No I’m not per se. Technically I’m a 21year old Presbyterian brought up as a Christian with no impressive conversion story. My faith has been tested on numerous occasions (just reading this thread is one!) and I would say I’ve hit rock bottom and come out still believing in God and Jesus. I’ve done my fair share of joyous clapping, singing and all that too, you can’t keep it in sometimes, but I’m not one to run around in the streets praising God and not think about what I’m saying.
Andy.G: Pretty much what you said except the bit about God looking and going “Oh bugger! Better go ‘n help ‘em out again…” God doesn’t work like that. (Sorry if I’ve got your meaning a bit mixed up…)
Vicious_Fishes: Why have a free country like this and then say “Hey! You murdered that person, off to jail!” Extreme example I know, but I think it shows the parallel.
Nizai: I’m not a bible scholar or a historian so I can’t really argue with you here except to say why does it matter? The stuff was still written down by eye witnesses who’ve spent a lifetime telling people about it (I the case of the gospels).
P.s. sorry for the massive reply, these threads get away quick when you’ve been away for a day or two…
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Techno Destructo
Riding In Peace
I guess a lot of the christian faith comes down to believing that the bible is a word-for-word accurate recording of events in the past.
You're saying that your proof for all of this stuff to be true (god, jesus' resurrection, etc....) is that it's written in the bible.
So, essentially, the concept of christianity (heck, even god) depends on the accuracy/truthfulness of the bible.
Is that a fair assumption?
You're saying that your proof for all of this stuff to be true (god, jesus' resurrection, etc....) is that it's written in the bible.
So, essentially, the concept of christianity (heck, even god) depends on the accuracy/truthfulness of the bible.
Is that a fair assumption?
McBain
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Arrrrrgghhhhh!
The perfect distillation of arguing with religious delusionals, right there.
Of course "God" doesn't work like that - it is a construct of thousands of years of defense of the non-existent by people who have way too much to lose by simply admitting they are full of shit.
Vicious_Fishes
Banned
whats that about religion being a way to control the people ?
humans have evolved a fear of the unknown, we don't know if hell exists, so we're scared.
better safe than sorry right ?
oh crap, now there's other religions...
how do i decide ?!
humans have evolved a fear of the unknown, we don't know if hell exists, so we're scared.
better safe than sorry right ?
oh crap, now there's other religions...
how do i decide ?!
Dumbellina
Likes Dirt
whywalkwhenucanroll said:
I didn't think he worked that much anyway because the lazy sod bludged on Sunday.
Vicious_Fishes
Banned
because this is something we as a society have decided is beneficial to the whole, whether we are religious or not.
it is not necessary to be religious in any way to have morals/ethics/rules/etc.
so if not blindly following like a sheep, and we come up with OUR OWN rules, where can these things come from if we are not religious ?
that's right, they have evolved.
these things have evolved to us, the rules we set down in "tribes' or... whatever, these rules have evolved over time, obviously some things are not beneficial to the group/race/etc, hence they are outlawed, just as some physical features are not beneficial to a species, hence the feature dies out over time...
the same thing can be had in reverse, something is necessary, so it is evolved to become part of us.
evolutionary psychology basically, it's not just physical features that evolve, many parts of our behaviour is pre-programmed, whether evolutionary, hereditary, or instinctively...
natural selection in a behavioural/sociological sense is where the rules came from is basically the point i'm trying to make
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Nebuchernezzer
Likes Dirt
Okies this is a bit late but last week someone asked if we could get a perspective of someone who has converted TO christianity. Anyways i was bored as so i fired off an email to a mate of mine who's a born again to get his perspective. Oh yeah i went to school with this bloke (we are both 26 now) and IMHO he was quite an unlikely convert. He probably converted when he was about 23 or 24.
P.S. this is not my view quoted below, it's the view of a mate of mine. If i was asked what i believe in i'd say 'science'.
P.S. this is not my view quoted below, it's the view of a mate of mine. If i was asked what i believe in i'd say 'science'
.
McBain
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Moron.
Yet again someone that deserves to have taken away all that modern thinking has given us. If you reject solid, proven, science as evolutionary biology (and similar), then you should be banned from using things like medicine, computers, modern engineering, etc., because the same process of scientific reasoning and intelligent thought have gone into them as biologists have used, so rejecting one should automatically lose you the rights to the other.
Fucktards.
Tristan23
Farkin guerilla
I haven't really payed much attention to this thread, although it's something i'm truly interested in. I just don't think i can read through the whole thing.
I just have to say though, that quote above made me sick. "I don't believe in evolution". Jeez, he is a true Christian huh.
I just have to say though, that quote above made me sick. "I don't believe in evolution". Jeez, he is a true Christian huh.
scblack
Leucocholic
P.S. this is not my view quoted below, it's the view of a mate of mine. If i was asked what i believe in i'd say 'science'
Adaptation IS evolution, by definition. Duh.........
Techno Destructo
Riding In Peace
Sigh... see, it's that kinda stuff that makes you wonder...
WHY did he think it was TRUE?
It seems his "proof" that it is true is that he believes in it. He says evolution is silly. But he doesn't challenge anything specific. It's just "silly". (Or refer to something in their "ace in the hole"... the bible...)
Creationism is true, because, "hey... look at this organism... it's too complex to have not be designed by a higher power". And that's all he's got.
As said earlier, "adaptation" IS "evolution". Organisms adapt over time to survive their surroundings. The ones that don't adapt, die out.
We're seeing evolution right now. Polar bears, due to climate change and the melting of polar ice caps, are being forced to move south. Recently, the first grizzly/polar bear cross was found... Polar bears, due to being shifted geographically, are starting to mate with other bears outside their species, creating a hybrid. This is going to make a new species of bear that will be probably be better adapted for the changing arctic climate than the current polar bear. The organism has changed. Adaptation, or dare I say it, evolution.
I suppose the religious person will trump me and say this is all in god's plan though. Damn. I lost again.
Cave Dweller
Eats Squid
So, 32 people dead in a school shooting. Why did they deserve to die? Oooo, thats right
Maybe we should get the NRA to change the saying to "Guns don't kill people, God kills people"
Damn, God has some fairly twisted plans.Techno Destructo said:
Maybe we should get the NRA to change the saying to "Guns don't kill people, God kills people"
Vicious_Fishes
Banned
if he says that something is too complex to not be designed, wouldn't the designer have to be at any level, more complex that the thing they are designing ?
it's a self defeating argument.
it's a self defeating argument.
BIGDave
Likes Dirt
So true, and if hes so magical and godlike, why doesnt he just get some other prostitute to pop out a baby. hes a god, and yet he cant create another son, WTF.
and yet all this dubious events jusy happend to occur 2000 years ago. i bet you that 2000 years in the future, people then will be sayin that there was another savior around now, in the year 2000.
Christianity is just a cult, its not persieved as this because its so widely accepted, or is it? Although cristians are generally a good cult, i'd rather have a cult of christians then a cult of the KKK.
as it says in the bible, "it was my sin that held him there, until it was accomplished." also how did jeuses die for our sins, i hadnt sined 2000 years ago, thats impossible, i wasnt even born then.
and another thing , did Adam and Eve have bellybuttons?
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