Chinese Carbon 29er

[rearviewmirror]

carbon frames for under $500, you get what you pay for. We had 2 chinese carbon frames in at work for building up this week.
Road frame had oval steerer tube on the forks, couldn't fit the headset properly, also had badly machined bearing seats in the frame, headset bearings wouldn't sit straight, and even more disturbing, bottom bracket inserts weren't straight.
The mtb frame had chainstays and seatstays not parallel with each other, about 8mm out, nasty.

Sounds like an anomaly, or a irritated bike shop employee that is pissed they have to build a frame up that they didn't make a profit on.

Have you lot heard of "Bike Direct" in the US? (www.bikesdirect.com) This guy sells bikes made in Asia under the Motobecane name, a full Ti / DuraAce road bike is something like $2000-2500. I see no difference in buying one of these bikes versus buying directly from the Chinese/Taiwanese manufacturer.

 

[scblack]

carbon frames for under $500, you get what you pay for. We had 2 chinese carbon frames in at work for building up this week.
Road frame had oval steerer tube on the forks, couldn't fit the headset properly, also had badly machined bearing seats in the frame, headset bearings wouldn't sit straight, and even more disturbing, bottom bracket inserts weren't straight.
The mtb frame had chainstays and seatstays not parallel with each other, about 8mm out, nasty.

I reckon RearviewMirror has it right:

a irritated bike shop employee that is pissed they have to build a frame up that
they didn't make a profit on.

I have bought a chinese road frame, and it is excellent quality. In the middle of building it up now.

 

[Nath8]

Normal BB. There are options on carbon weave (12k) and matte or gloss finish. I'll post a pic & weight when it arrives

Thanks. Can't wait to see it.
I'm interested in a BB30 frame, so I can run an eccentric BB like this. I'm liking the thought of running a rigid, carbon SS that weighs around 8.3Kg.

 

[rearviewmirror]

Thanks. Can't wait to see it.
I'm interested in a BB30 frame, so I can run an eccentric BB like this. I'm liking the thought of running a rigid, carbon SS that weighs around 8.3Kg.

Will be nice, keep us posted on your progress. I wish one of these manufacturers would come out with a paragon like rear end that could be run single, dingle, or geared.

 

[pinkbike]

I recently got a ebay carbon 26" frame from China and am stoked with the result (and my results in DirtWorks NSW 100km when it floated up hills for me). I too am tempted by the 29er frames and I think that over the next 12 months a lot more option will crop up in the 29 regard on ebay and the like.

edit: 26" wheels, 16.5 inch frame - I am not a giant.

 

[crash bandicoot]

Sounds like an anomaly, or a irritated bike shop employee that is pissed they have to build a frame up that they didn't make a profit on.


Weird, as an employee, I hardly make a profit on jobs, I get paid the same whether I do 1 job or 20 and I would rather be inside building bikes than outside in the cold sweeping up leaves.
Have built up several chinese carbon bikes, most of them are pretty good, but, the 2 last week were just rubish. And, believe me, there is plenty of profit to be made in building up frames that customers bring in.

 

[pinkbike]

Weird, as an employee, I hardly make a profit on jobs, I get paid the same whether I do 1 job or 20 and I would rather be inside building bikes than outside in the cold sweeping up leaves.
Have built up several chinese carbon bikes, most of them are pretty good, but, the 2 last week were just rubish. And, believe me, there is plenty of profit to be made in building up frames that customers bring in.

I'd be betting that there's some variability in these frames, I mean "chinese carbon" represents everything from some dude alone in his shed to the factories that make well known brands. Quality control and manufacturing standards are going to vary from place to place which is why it's worth doing your research into who to buy from.

 

[rearviewmirror]

Sounds like an anomaly, or a irritated bike shop employee that is pissed they have to build a frame up that they didn't make a profit on.


Weird, as an employee, I hardly make a profit on jobs, I get paid the same whether I do 1 job or 20 and I would rather be inside building bikes than outside in the cold sweeping up leaves.
Have built up several chinese carbon bikes, most of them are pretty good, but, the 2 last week were just rubish. And, believe me, there is plenty of profit to be made in building up frames that customers bring in.

I heard of a shop in Melbourne that charged a fella $300 for swapping parts over to a frame he ordered overseas. I thought that was a bit rich. The price to build a bike (sans parts) should be no more than $100. I totally agree that some of these Chinese frames can be sh*t, but there is the possibility some will be all right. If the site "Busted Carbon" teaches anything it's that even mass produced name brand carbon can break. I would be pissed to receive a frame with unequal stays, and out of round orifices, but I don't believe their quality control would be so poor. I met with quite a few Chinese/Taiwanese carbon peddlers (no pun intended) at Interbike year after year (mainly because I wanted to check out the asian chicks they brought with them.) I got the gist these folks know their carbon well, they'd never admit who they built frames for, but were quite confident that their frames quality would be on par with anyone else. They're selling stuff for what it costs to make it plus a mark up. No marketing money or R&D involved (copied geometry). I own a lot of high end bikes, but I have to admit a carbon beater MTB intrigues me. I am scared of the geometry though, I really want something with an aggressive head tube angle. Something almost dangerously twitch (read: fast). I'm going to pull the pin on one once I figure out who to order from, so when I get the geometry worked out.

 

[The Mad Hippie]

I heard of a shop in Melbourne that charged a fella $300 for swapping parts over to a frame he ordered overseas. I thought that was a bit rich. The price to build a bike (sans parts) should be no more than $100. I totally agree that some of these Chinese frames can be sh*t, but there is the possibility some will be all right. If the site "Busted Carbon" teaches anything it's that even mass produced name brand carbon can break. I would be pissed to receive a frame with unequal stays, and out of round orifices, but I don't believe their quality control would be so poor. I met with quite a few Chinese/Taiwanese carbon peddlers (no pun intended) at Interbike year after year (mainly because I wanted to check out the asian chicks they brought with them.) I got the gist these folks know their carbon well, they'd never admit who they built frames for, but were quite confident that their frames quality would be on par with anyone else. They're selling stuff for what it costs to make it plus a mark up. No marketing money or R&D involved (copied geometry). I own a lot of high end bikes, but I have to admit a carbon beater MTB intrigues me. I am scared of the geometry though, I really want something with an aggressive head tube angle. Something almost dangerously twitch (read: fast). I'm going to pull the pin on one once I figure out who to order from, so when I get the geometry worked out.

I would be interested to know the formula you used to come to the figure of $100 for someone else's work.
And if this "shop in Melbourne" that charged a "fella" $300 pays much in rent or perhaps has public liability to insure his or her work on products of unknown origin. It seems chinese labour rates should now be applied to chinese frames being built.

E

 

[rearviewmirror]

I would be interested to know the formula you used to come to the figure of $100 for someone else's work.
And if this "shop in Melbourne" that charged a "fella" $300 pays much in rent or perhaps has public liability to insure his or her work on products of unknown origin. It seems chinese labour rates should now be applied to chinese frames being built.

E

[Labor rate variance = (Actual hours worked × Actual rate) − (Actual hours worked × Standard rate)]

The strong AUD will give us the ability to not get ripped off on things that can be shipped, at least the local bike shops can still screw people on service.

Back on topic please.

 

[mtb101]

I'm still waiting for someone in this thread to question what happens when a no-name carbon frame with limited warranty, unknown quality control and expertise fails catastrophically (as carbon does) when for example ... descending fast down a rocky single track and the frame seperates.

If it did happen to a brand frame you would have some comeback, especially if you end up seriously injured (disabled?) as a result of frame failure.

I think if you want a bike at the carbon level, then you are pretty serious rider who likes to push the limits .... I probably wouldn't invest in this cheap stuff.

 

[rearviewmirror]

I'm still waiting for someone in this thread to question what happens when a no-name carbon frame with limited warranty, unknown quality control and expertise fails catastrophically (as carbon does) when for example ... descending fast down a rocky single track and the frame seperates.

If it did happen to a brand frame you would have some comeback, especially if you end up seriously injured (disabled?) as a result of frame failure.

I think if you want a bike at the carbon level, then you are pretty serious rider who likes to push the limits .... I probably wouldn't invest in this cheap stuff.

Are you implying that you can't be seriously injured on a brand name frame? In the past 15 years of MTB'ing I've seen dozens and dozens of broken frames. Luckily no one was seriously injured, but that part had nothing to do with who built the frame. Some have had luck with warranty, some were given "crash replacement" discounts. I broke a couple of Trek Fuel frames (Fuel 90 Alu and Fuel 98 carbon) in my day and on both occasions Trek replaced the frame because I was the original owner. Those who are riding 2nd hand bikes risk riding with no warranty, and there are plenty of name brand manufacturers that have limited 1-2 year or "no race" warranties. Your post is baseless because, pushing the limits on any bike poses risks, and you have no evidence to support that these "cheap" frame wouldn't hold up.

 

[steve24]

Are you implying that you can't be seriously injured on a brand name frame? In the past 15 years of MTB'ing I've seen dozens and dozens of broken frames. Luckily no one was seriously injured, but that part had nothing to do with who built the frame. Some have had luck with warranty, some were given "crash replacement" discounts. I broke a couple of Trek Fuel frames (Fuel 90 Alu and Fuel 98 carbon) in my day and on both occasions Trek replaced the frame because I was the original owner. Those who are riding 2nd hand bikes risk riding with no warranty, and there are plenty of name brand manufacturers that have limited 1-2 year or "no race" warranties. Your post is baseless because, pushing the limits on any bike poses risks, and you have evidence to support that these "cheap" frame wouldn't hold up.

I think he is talking about liability due to injury and nothing to do with frame (lets face it who really cares if a cheap frame breaks after a year).
If you become due to catasrohic faiure of the frame then you (or your family) may have reason to sue and of course the sum would be a little more than $400.....

 

[Landon]

Frame Build

The price to build a bike (sans parts) should be no more than $100.

Yes, how did you work this out?

From experience, I don't believe it's viable to properly build a one off frame, check component condition and adjust for a hundred bucks. Mates rates, yeah maybe. But as a standard service charge, you're not going to stay in business at that rate in Australia.

 

[rearviewmirror]

I think he is talking about liability due to injury and nothing to do with frame (lets face it who really cares if a cheap frame breaks after a year).
If you become due to catasrohic faiure of the frame then you (or your family) may have reason to sue and of course the sum would be a little more than $400.....

All right.. lets put this back on topic. No reason to talk about litigation, and catastrophic frame failure, as this applies to all cycling, not just buying a frame from China (the country that produces the most "name brand" frames as well).

 

[The Mad Hippie]

The addition of frame quality and implied warranty should be extremely relevant to this topic and more so than most other topics here.

One of the primary drivers to buying these types of product from China is, and has been made quite clear here, is price. The other is weight. And lets face it, when a weight saving is sought, these lower end manufactures don't look to higher quality materials, they just remove material from the lay-up. This does not add to the cost of the end product rather it improves it.

Sure it is true that frames from higher end brands have failed, but these will ,more often than not be returned for warranty, and then get inspected by the guys that engineer the product, leading to a better product.

E

 

[Ivan]

The addition of frame quality and implied warranty should be extremely relevant to this topic and more so than most other topics here.

One of the primary drivers to buying these types of product from China is, and has been made quite clear here, is price. The other is weight. And lets face it, when a weight saving is sought, these lower end manufactures don't look to higher quality materials, they just remove material from the lay-up. This does not add to the cost of the end product rather it improves it.

Sure it is true that frames from higher end brands have failed, but these will ,more often than not be returned for warranty, and then get inspected by the guys that engineer the product, leading to a better product.

E

The major assumption that your making, and always pops up in these threads, is that the no name Chinese frames are inferior in quality to frames sold under a recognized brand for significantly more money.

I have not seen any evidence, especially on the mtbr threads where there are a lot of people who have purchased these frames, that these frames are of poor quality.

Just because you pay a lot for a frame, you perceive that you are buying quality. This may not be true, as what you may be paying for is a warranty on a product which may have an assumed higher failure rate.

These frames may be shit, but I haven't seen a lot of evidence of that yet.

And if a frame from a name brand manufacturer fails catastrophically on you, causing you injury, good luck proving that it was a manufacturing defect in court.

 

[rearviewmirror]

The major assumption that your making, and always pops up in these threads, is that the no name Chinese frames are inferior in quality to frames sold under a recognized brand for significantly more money.

I have not seen any evidence, especially on the mtbr threads where there are a lot of people who have purchased these frames, that these frames are of poor quality.

Just because you pay a lot for a frame, you perceive that you are buying quality. This may not be true, as what you may be paying for is a warranty on a product which may have an assumed higher failure rate.

These frames may be shit, but I haven't seen a lot of evidence of that yet.

And if a frame from a name brand manufacturer fails catastrophically on you, causing you injury, good luck proving that it was a manufacturing defect in court.

Yep.. well said.. and to put a close to the comments from the health and safety crew, think about people who build their own wheels, or do their own bike maintenance. They must make you cringe thinking about all the things that could go wrong on a ride. We can't trust the Chinese, but we can trust a pimply faced 18 year old at a bike shop to true our wheels and bleed our brakes. Get over yourselves already.

Back on topic please.

 

[Antsonline]

So - to summarise this thread (which is becoming more ridiculous by the minute), whats being said is that...
1/. Quality cant be assured, some examples of bad finish and QC have been experienced however
2/. Warranty doesnt matter
3/. Overall failure rate 'may not' be any different to a big name brand
4/. Big name brands would fight in court if you tried to prove frame failure resulted in injury.
5/. Personal liability (me badly building wheels) is the same as something being built and sold as 'fit for purpose'.
6/. If a pimply kid bled my brakes and did it wrong, I would have no come-back to said pimply kid.

Seriously, you want one of these frames, just go an f#cking buy one. Then show us how it goes.

It would seem that any of the normal criteria of bike buying (see above list) go out of the window.It also seems that any disagreement or negative advice or feedback will be met with intransigence. If they're that good - go get one.

Having worked with a very famous bike brand, that gets their carbon frames made in China, I know exactly how the factories work. I also know the truth behind the BS that says "brand X is made in the same factory as brand Y, so they are the same other than paint". Its nonsense. Manufacturers buy 'time' in factories. at the switch-over between brands, tools change, moulds change, tolerances change, even the labour force changes. It is exactly the same lighting, electricity, and even building address. The product is different.
I baked a cake last night, so did my missus. In the same kitchen, with the same ingredients. Mine was shit.
I didnt die at 40kph saving a cuppla hundred bucks though.

 

[rearviewmirror]

^ Well done using "intransigence" in a sentence. You seem pretty wound up, thanks for reading so intently, although your summary was quite poor. I can't help thinking about your missus though, just how well does she bake? Great, now even I've gone off topic.