E Bike at Cross Country Endurance Event

[Lazmo]

Uphill speed is a lot faster, already a problem with 2 way trails where I ride with people climbing in the opposite direction at roughly 7km/h and I'd hate to see how they go hitting blind corners at double + more

Yep, I was descending Hug a few weeks ago, going quick, for me. Saw a climbing bike through the trees a fair way off. Next thing ya know we almost hit head on, as he was going much quicker uphill than I expected, and arrived much sooner than I expected. Weird thing is that I nearly crashed trying to get out of his way, as I was descending and felt compelled to let him through, and it wasn't until he was past me that I realised that he was on an ebike. So, I've climbed using pedals only, earned my descent and nearly crashed avoiding a guy who was hammering uphill on an ebike. It not only stuffed up my flow but changed my mood from serenity to anger. I mean it's a small potatoes first world who gives a rats problem, but it still pissed me off. BTW, it was a pedal assist, not the Stealth POS bikes that I've seen a few times at Lysty. But it was going pretty quick uphill and took me by surprise.

 

[Calvin27]

notwithstanding many mtb trails are self-limiting by their very nature, I don't think a blind embrace of ebikes is the answer, but then I'm not an ebiker so maybe that's my bias.

I agree. Last time I did an ebike trip, yeah the dude with little biking experience really showed. I don't think we are best to judge here because most of us have a good basic level of skill already - sometimes it's easy to overlook that.

 

[silentbutdeadly]

We've got a 3 hour Enduro coming up soon...our feature race for the year. Without hills, we have lots and lots of pedalling involved in doing well. Perfect e-bike territory if I think about it. We on the organising committee have created no category for e-bikes nor have we even thought about it to be honest. Actually we probably wouldn't even create an e-bike category because it isn't really something you can meaningfully race in a pedelec class due to the likely disparity in fitness of riders within the class.

Suffice to say...if you bring one to Coomie in a couple of weeks then by all means have a good time but don't expect to win anything because you won't. And if you don't play by the rules of common courtesy then you risk having your expensive e-bike slung in the Murray River...

 

[The Duckmeister]

I don't mind e-bikes for recreational use; having ridden with a few guys on them (them, not me) I don't see them as the evil some of you make them out to be. That said, I am not a great fan of the idea of using them in races. Firstly, the non-separation of category is absolutely wrong however you look at it; ultimately it's not really any different to (hypothetically) not separating solo from team riders in an event, where on one hand you'd have riders busting their arse for the whole three, six, ten or however many hours, and on the other hand having riders splitting the load & popping up fresh as a daisy every third lap or whatever - it's just not a level playing field, and chucking power-assisted bikes in the mix without distnction is no different. So if they're to be allowed, score them separately.

The difference of experience is always there, powered or not, especially at endurance events where the team aspect lends itself to encouraging newer riders. But again e-bikes are more likely to be ridden by less experienced riders. In the end though, passing and being passed comes down to rider courtesy, and that can be just as bad sometimes regardless of whether the bike has a battery or not - if you don't think you can make a pass stick, don't do it.

On the music thing, I'd rather people have speakers than earphones, at least they're more likely to hear you yelling at them.....

 

[Ideate]

They're top end heavy and harder to tight corner with and going up hill is like using 1/8 of your strength so if you built a dedicated trail for an e-bike it will be somewhat different.

No they're not lol.. I'm surprised you tried this as an excuse. That's like me saying all bikes in general are top heavy and harder to handle in tight corners. Of course some ebikes are.. based on their geometry and technology but not all are. And people using 1/8 of their strength are not allowed to be on the same trail as others using 7/8 or 8/8 of their strength? Are you serious? You're making this too easy.

They're unregulated for starters, any dick can turn up to the trails on a modified e-bike, pretend to spin their legs while everyone is looking (like I've already seen) and say it's legal or turn up with something that's got twice the power that it should have.

They are regulated. You can't buy an ebike that goes over 24km besides those motorbike gateway models like the Stealth. Any dick can turn up to ANYTHING with a modified ANYTHING and pretend to be doing ANYTHING. What's this got to do with ebikes? Nothing. It's to do with PEOPLE doing the right thing. I have a modified custom ebike but don't "pretend to spin". As Chris Cocalis (Pivot CEO) explains, "... for those that haven’t ridden a good eMTB: you can suffer [on an eMTB] as much as you wish. In fact, it kind of begs you to punish yourself. Suffering is a lot easier to deal with when you are having too much fun to stop."

Uphill speed is a lot faster, already a problem with 2 way trails where I ride with people climbing in the opposite direction at roughly 7km/h and I'd hate to see how they go hitting blind corners at double + more then you have the braking into berms from the higher speeds.

Trail etiquette doesn't suddenly go out the window if you're riding an ebike. Again, it's people, NOT ebikes.

I'm happy to see e-bikes on the trails if they were sealed for tamper proof, a permit requirement was enforced for people that really needed them and people that ran businesses with small tours that didn't largely impact with normal MTBers.

Communism. How about ALL bike riders require a permit? And while we're at it, only allow people that actually NEED a bike to have a permit. What are we doing here? Talking about hand guns? NO.

Enough said, you can sort of predict this shit when people are fast to get on their back foot. :whistle:

I'm sort of upset that's all you had? I pride myself as being open minded but this shit you've crapped on about is pathetic.



Edit: You can't ride an ebike in a non-ebike race. It's not fair.

 

[Ideate]

It's ironic really...we've spent a couple decades advocating and building cycling only trails and now we let a motorized piece of equipment use them under the guise of some pedal assisted bs....sorry but they aren't bicycles no matter which way you term it....

Apparently you're wrong and they're identical lol..

"A power assisted bicycle is identical to a pedal powered bicycle, except it has an auxiliary motor." - Vicroads

Are you feeling ok Gripo? I feel there's some underlying issue here. Do you suffer from Xenophobia? Or just deeply habitual?


Edit: What about riding an ebike in a DH event? Would that be fair? I still don't think so tbh.

 

[Ideate]

I also think ebikes have a loooong way to run, but given they are basically an unknown, factoring in the diverse and 'different' rider demographic who may hold different values to regular cyclists & mtbers in particular on which the whole trail advocacy thing balances, the evolving and concealed nature of the tech making them ever more motor than bicycle, and the push to sell a sh1tload of them to people who should prob learn how to ride the first place, notwithstanding many mtb trails are self-limiting by their very nature, I don't think a blind embrace of ebikes is the answer, but then I'm not an ebiker so maybe that's my bias.

Verbose but more sensible and thought out.

Not that "loooong" actually. They'll be the norm sooner than you think. Have a look at this map of ebike users in Europe. That's only people registered using mission control (Specialized Levo etc).. so doesn't include other ebike brands.



The issue that keeps popping up for me is that ebikes aren't just for noobs. It's a stigma that makes no sense. Your point being made that "people should learn how to ride in the first place" should apply to everyone shouldn't it? What has it go to do with ebikes in particular? Bikes are sold to people of all skill level. I get so annoyed and frustrated when I'm on a Strava run and there's some noob tap dancing down the rock garden with his clips on and his seat sky high.

Actually I don't use Strava.. and I don't get frustrated because every single person on this forum was once a noob and as long as some patience, manners and trail etiquette are followed then I have no problem with people getting in my way from time to time.

I'm actually picturing a cross country rider getting in my way now so maybe the question should be.. Should we ban cross country specific bikes and riders from dh, jump park and enduro type trails?



Edit: Nah, ebikes need their own category if racing. Not fair otherwise.

 

[schred]

You misunderstood, I meant their presence has really only just commenced as far as impact to mtb goes, and if we are in it for the long haul I'd prefer a careful as she goes approach and hope the mtb industry figures out what's at stage vs. drinking the e-koolaid or whatever it is you haven't yet described.

Also your argument around ebikes not being the problem but people, is too dependent on the assumption of peoples' ability to self control. That is simply not the case as history has shown across a range of issues beyond the magnificence of ebikes. People will push boundaries, it's in our nature. I'm not suggesting ebikes kill, but it's akin to the argument that guns don't kill people, people do. So there's no need to restrict their access because people will do the right thing as you say. Clearly a BS premise to base any argument off. And if not, how you are proposing to the issue is dealt with? Presently, human physiology is a pretty good self regulator. But you can always rely on self interest, and ebikes and ebikers are no exception. Your example of Pivot bikes is a good one with a bike company is telling us how great their next e-product is. Breaking news: Barber says you need a haircut.

 

[ozzybmx]

Suffice to say...if you bring one to Coomie in a couple of weeks then by all means have a good time but don't expect to win anything because you won't. And if you don't play by the rules of common courtesy then you risk having your expensive e-bike slung in the Murray River...

The rego is on the mTBA website so do you follow their rules ? Or does CMMBC have their own for their races.

2 weeks ago in Melrose at the 18hr, 2 riders rode ebikes and there was nothing in the rules to say they couldnt, they didn't reach podium but there will definitely be something in the rules next year.

 

[Minlak]

E-Bikes are here and they are going to stay. I see no issue with them racing with everyone else just in their own class. The promoters are here to make money and its a revenue stream. I am sure as it becomes more main stream there will be separate events but in its infancy it makes sense to allow them to run alongside at the same event. No different to many car races these days.

The debate on whether they are coming is dead they are here and being accepted more and more every day. The bigger concern is the rules keeping up with them. Something that would be easy to tweak for more power.

At the epic there was even extra batteries dropped at the feed stations 35k and 70K (I seem to recall).

 

[pink poodle]

Should we ban cross country specific bikes and riders from dh, jump park and enduro type trails?

Yes! Yes we should. Fuck I hate seeing the destruction those skinny tyred lycra clad goons cause to my gravity trails. I'm not blocking up your xc torture course fuck face, so stop wrecking mine and making your stupid as fuck b-lines! And FFS...it is a down not up trail! Do I need some daft cock head putting up a section of trail after climbing through my trail blocking jumps that I attempting to hit as warp speed???

Sorry...currently a bit of an issue for me on a regular basis. It is destructive to the trails and dangerous for all parties. Yet apparently stopping and having a very polite (I can do it) "hey man this trail is for down not up." conversation makes me an arsehole.

As for e-bikes I have observed the following becoming the norm on my local trails:
- Novelty factor. People attempting to push the limits of their new toys by trying to climb steep chutes. This of course leads to spinning out and tearing up the surface, sure only a small amount each time...but continuously. It's also dangerous for those of use riding the correct way - down.
- People not yet adjusted to the higher speeds available to them and approaching (mostly corners) too quickly resulting in ripping skids through berms etc. Some of the trails in question have small burst climbs deliberately built into them as a speed trap to assist with reducing braking and erosion on the immediately following steep bits where surface is of a poor quality (damn gravel pits!). Don't worry a lot of conventional bikes like to skid too. Duck I get sick of skids running ruts on my trails.
- e-bikes startling people on the shared path that runs through the forest. But this isn't anything new either. Roadies scare people. I scare people. The creepy fuckers wandering in there state people. People on petrol powered push bikes scare people. People on foot just seem to be easily and unnecessarily scared (by life).

I just don't share well. Once upon a time people had manners and common sense. If a trails was designed for 1 direction/style that was adhered too. Of people didn't have the skills to ride a certain course or obstacle they didn't wreck it or try to alter it to suit them, they developed their skills and worked up to it. Trails lasted longer and we're safer for all users. Not anymore.

 

[DMan]

E-Bikes are here and they are going to stay. I see no issue with them racing with everyone else just in their own class. The promoters are here to make money and its a revenue stream. I am sure as it becomes more main stream there will be separate events but in its infancy it makes sense to allow them to run alongside at the same event. No different to many car races these days.

The debate on whether they are coming is dead they are here and being accepted more and more every day. The bigger concern is the rules keeping up with them. Something that would be easy to tweak for more power.

At the epic there was even extra batteries dropped at the feed stations 35k and 70K (I seem to recall).

Same here too apparently. At the 70km mark

 

[silentbutdeadly]

The rego is on the mTBA website so do you follow their rules ? Or does CMMBC have their own for their races.

2 weeks ago in Melrose at the 18hr, 2 riders rode ebikes and there was nothing in the rules to say they couldnt, they didn't reach podium but there will definitely be something in the rules next year.

There was no category for ebikes. Only age related categories. We follow mtba rules for events in general but I've not seen anything specific to acknowledging ebikes. Our Rule of thumb though says if you are advantaged by a motor then all you can win is a good time!

You coming?

 

[pink poodle]

The bigger concern is the rules keeping up with them. Something that would be easy to tweak for more power.

There will likely be ever growing pressure for more motor input and less rider effort. In some cases that will make sense; imagine lanes specifically for bikes and e-bikes and drivers of cars respecting that and the eduction the could have on the number of cars and pollution in big cities? In other situations it will be not so suitable. But as long as there is money to be made people will try and make it. People are also lazy and self deceived as to their fitness.

Rules are fine, but enforcing them is going to also be an issue. I regularly ride past cops at night without any lights on and barely have any trouble at the moment.

...and all these rules are just the beginning to them taking away our freedoms! Rego, licence, insurance, roadworthy checks, all to ride a bike? Some would already like that to happen.

 

[mtb101]

just letting you fit guys know that I'm training up for the next 100k event, I"m going to kick your ass-sis, I've upped my e-penis motor watts, and have been binging on sunday morning donuts so yeah I'm going to be the quickest guy on the descents, keep clear baby. :caked:

 

[indica]

Let them race entirely on their own on another day is my view.

Bizarre that they are on course at the same time, what an odd concept.

 

[safreek]

just letting you fit guys know that I'm training up for the next 100k event, I"m going to kick your ass-sis, I've upped my e-penis motor watts, and have been binging on sunday morning donuts so yeah I'm going to be the quickest guy on the descents, keep clear baby. :caked:

View attachment 340072

Top stuff, and I see that you lost a couple of kg for the race.

 

[Flow-Rider]

No they're not lol.. I'm surprised you tried this as an excuse. That's like me saying all bikes in general are top heavy and harder to handle in tight corners. Of course some ebikes are.. based on their geometry and technology but not all are. And people using 1/8 of their strength are not allowed to be on the same trail as others using 7/8 or 8/8 of their strength? Are you serious? You're making this too easy.




They are regulated. You can't buy an ebike that goes over 24km besides those motorbike gateway models like the Stealth. Any dick can turn up to ANYTHING with a modified ANYTHING and pretend to be doing ANYTHING. What's this got to do with ebikes? Nothing. It's to do with PEOPLE doing the right thing. I have a modified custom ebike but don't "pretend to spin". As Chris Cocalis (Pivot CEO) explains, "... for those that haven’t ridden a good eMTB: you can suffer [on an eMTB] as much as you wish. In fact, it kind of begs you to punish yourself. Suffering is a lot easier to deal with when you are having too much fun to stop."




Trail etiquette doesn't suddenly go out the window if you're riding an ebike. Again, it's people, NOT ebikes.



Communism. How about ALL bike riders require a permit? And while we're at it, only allow people that actually NEED a bike to have a permit. What are we doing here? Talking about hand guns? NO.




I'm sort of upset that's all you had? I pride myself as being open minded but this shit you've crapped on about is pathetic.



Edit: You can't ride an ebike in a non-ebike race. It's not fair.

BTW I've ridden a few ebikes like the Specialized Turbo Levo, even the owner claimed to have problems in tight corners.

What I'm trying to tell you in basic is that the general speeds of an e-bike aren't suited to most of the older style trails and when you introduce a lot of traffic it ups the chances of more collisions. It's bad enough with this race mentality on my local trails with normal mtbs let alone introducing large groups of people on electrical assisted bikes, from what I've experienced you virtually spin your legs and you get to the top of the climb like it never happened. This bike claimed to be 60% assist on max setting, when you get to the top of the trail there's no reason to even rest. This gap where people normally rest gives people a chance to get up the trails in a group before the other group descends. The trails sort of self regulate themselves. There's many more issues that will be introduced if they become in plaque proportions on the trails and like I said there's no one out there that's going to check that they're regulated.

If you're going to try this discrimination thing, I used to ride most likely before you were even born 30 and more years ago in the same parks that are now dedicated to MTB with motorbikes. From a few bad actions from other people and not myself they've now been band, I've accepted that there's idiots around and these things happen for a reason.

This type of action that the OP has experienced is what I would have expected, why on earth would anyone want to compete with an electric assisted bike against non assisted bike in the first place.

 

[mtb101]

the sh!t will hit the fan when someone on a 'human powered bicycle' or human powered walker is hit by inexperienced guy on 'motorized' vehicle (yes bicycle with motor is no longer a bicycle, it's a motorbike) on trails remembering motorized vehicle has no reg and no insurance and is capable of much higher speeds, (don't forget plonker on his e-bike who learned to ride playing video games).

as is the case with every other vehicle - there is registration of some kind for legal protection of others, liability.

what that will expose is the loop hole in the law allowing motorized vehicles into our parklands, trails etc.

this was the case with petrol powered motorbikes years ago having head ons etc with serious injury and no protection for the rider or the people they hit. eg. (a quadriplegic cost lots of money to fund)

 

[damo666]

Bizarre that they are on course at the same time, what an odd concept.

Disagree - plenty of other sports have different abilities/technologies competing at the same time (think circuit racing, rallying, plenty of enduranced based athletic events etc).
I haven't been to a single long distance bike race where "pass you downhill, get overtaken uphill" scenario does not repeat over & over, even without e-bikes.
It seems as if ego is the only reason people are getting concerned about this?

The screwy part is them not being timed in their own category. That's just wrong.