shakes
Likes Dirt
That KTM I linked claims 7.5kw.
With peaks of 22kw
Easily keeps up with small modern 4 stroke dirt bikes.
5 years ago that was sci fi to have it under 100kg.
eBikes - what's the current perspective
- Thread starter Dark Knight
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With peaks of 22kw
Easily keeps up with small modern 4 stroke dirt bikes.
5 years ago that was sci fi to have it under 100kg.
Hyena
Likes Bikes
I honestly didn't come here looking for an argument, but I knew from existing comments that'd be exactly the reception I'd get, hence my comment on ES (again a joke, I do that alot)
That's fine, ES is our camp, rotorburn is yours, there's sensible people in both camps but regrettably there's alot of very closed minds here.
I think my race analogy is actually pretty spot on. Obviously I'm not comparing to the other hardships various groups have faced throughout history but the whole "you don't belong", "we don't serve your type here" , "ban them before they take over " , "fuck off we're full" etc just plain lacks any backing.
As for the whole e-nerd related stuff, maybe your comments about being juvenile weren't figurative. It's starting to sound like an American highschool movie. I guess you're all the football team and we're the nerds huh ? Maybe a typical case of internet heros and keyboard warriors.
It's curious that the only negativity I've encountered in real life has been from lycras.
Please, lets have a sensible discussion about it. How do you perceive ebikes to be really threatening you ? From what I can gather the recurring 'argument' is you think the trails are going to be flooded with fat people who aren't pedaling as hard as you ??
If you think I'm just trolling and you have nothing to post but unimaginative generic slagging off then I'll be promptly be on my way.
nzhumpy
Googlemeister who likes bikes and scandal
Does this look familiar?
"Whether you're looking for short range pedal assistance or want to convert your mountain bike into a 70km/hr wheel spinning, wheel standing electric dirt bike, we have you covered!"
I can't see riding like this helping anyones cause.
[video=youtube;hBysfqkNuR8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hBysfqkNuR8[/video]
Hyena
Likes Bikes
Sorry that was actually a sarcastic injoke to the existing ebikers here about the 1000w thing. Do you know that fit cyclists can actually output more than 1000w for short periods of time ?
If we're having a sensible discussion, the whole wattage thing is generally fairly misunderstood.
A bike running 1000w is not like dropping a 6l V8 into a corolla. There's alot of inefficiency in ebike motors and when they burst high power alot of that additional peak power is being dumped as heat into the windings. The end result is you get a little bit extra performance but a more impressive sounding peak power doesn't directly translate. A bit like cars quoting peak power at redline when 99% of the time you're not driving like that.
This is one of my first ebikes, I bought the bike off a bloke here actually. The old e-brakes were woefully inadequate but that's another story. Aside from the hub motor in the back and the battery on the top bar (which is largely covered by your legs when riding) I think it's pretty inconspicuous and I passed numerous people on both the road and trails who were none the wiser that it was electric. Hopefully this isnt construed as trolling or intentionally stirring the pot, but how much power do you think this was running ? Would you believe 5000w ? (I guess you will now because nzhumpy has just posted one of my videos. haha) My point is you can ride it sedately or like a loony, depending on where you are, who's around, etc.
I regularly ride my high powered ebikes on friends farms and I know both the owners and neighbors appreciate not hearing dirt bikes making noise all day. Likewise when I'm riding in local bushland and firetrails, no one knows I'm there, I'm not bothering anyone,where's the harm ?
Hyena
Likes Bikes
Again, riding for the circumstances and conditions. Do you ride fast through tight trails generally when you can't see far ahead and might have a head on with another bike rider or a bush walker ? Hell no.
When I'm out in the middle of nowhere, riding at midnight when I've already sussed out the trail and there's no one around, sure I have some fun. If I did this in the middle of the day when people were around or likely to be around, then yeah, I'd be an idiot and certainly expect negative sentiment.
This is obviously an extreme example which is the point of the video. No one wants to watch a lengthy video of helmet cam footage rolling along a fire trail. But there's a bit of that sort of thing, recreational riding with mates type stuff too as you probably saw in my most recent vid . Not too offensive to anyone I'd have thought ?
silentbutdeadly
has some good things to say
It's not the ebikes that are the problem. It is the small proportion of tools that ride them. They are different tools to the ones we have in MTB but of the same general style. We don't want or need them to join forces.
Most MTB trails are not designed or built to cope with high powered ebikes or motorbikes. They don't belong on these trails. Fat people on bicycles can ride my trails any time...even with a typical pedal assist bike.
Plankosaurus
Spongeplank Dalepantski
The harm is, when talking about riding MTB trails, that you are potentially going too fast in places that aren't designed for speed and destroying trails built by hardworking vols.
I know you have a rebuttal for both of these, but your not considering others. What about Joe f-wit that buys one after losing his moto license for speeding? Or Bob the drunk that's doing the same after blowing a .18? You can't tell me that you'll vouch for their sense of self restraint and self preservation. It'd be bad enough getting a dumbshit on a moto riding my local trails but at least I'll hear him before he plows into me.
I probably wouldn't have an issue with a low powered 'assisted bicycle' but where's the line to be drawn and how's it going to be enforced?
Use them in exactly the same way as a moto for sure, just keep them off the MTB trails
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I know you have a rebuttal for both of these, but your not considering others. What about Joe f-wit that buys one after losing his moto license for speeding? Or Bob the drunk that's doing the same after blowing a .18? You can't tell me that you'll vouch for their sense of self restraint and self preservation. It'd be bad enough getting a dumbshit on a moto riding my local trails but at least I'll hear him before he plows into me.
I probably wouldn't have an issue with a low powered 'assisted bicycle' but where's the line to be drawn and how's it going to be enforced?
Use them in exactly the same way as a moto for sure, just keep them off the MTB trails
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Hyena
Likes Bikes
Interesting, have you had negative experiences with ebike riders in your area ? I've found them actually to be a fairly sensible bunch on the whole. Unlike the deros that fit those cheap whipper snipper motor kits on a kmart bike. They're a menace and typically have no courtesy or respect.
I agree there are trails where they're not suitable, and realistically the sort of people who are riding more high powered bikes are doing so on more wide open tracks. The power thing really has little impact though, other than people riding too fast and skidding through corners etc. And a noob on a downhill section of track is probably going to do the same anyway.
I frequently build high powered kits for people, 2000w is a common power level most people go with. And before you die of heart attacks, these people aren't out there ripping up your trails, over 50% of them are older blokes in their 50s and early 60s with dodgy knees, backs, general deconditioning etc who want to get back into riding. They're not doing daredevil stuff on the single track they're mainly on open firetrails and just enjoying being back in the outdoors with the power of the motor giving them the confidence to head out for a ride and not be buggered and have to get off and push on the first hill they come to.
thecat
NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
Compairing this to the human rights movement of the 60s is just plain ridiculous. But how about we let that slide in the effort to have a sensible conversation?
Sure there a bit of us against them attitude at play but a lot of concern comes from a trail advocacy stand point too.
We've had a long hard fight to gain legitimacy with land managers. There are still those that lump us with dirt squirters and struggle to differentiate between us and motor bikes. Start throwing mountain bikes with motors into the mix and it's going to muddy the water.
The fear is the anti mtb brigade will jump up and down proclaiming "see we told! you open the trails to mtb and now it's ebikes wanting in, next it will be dirt bikes and before you know it people will be marrying their dogs! We should ban the lot of them now."
As I wrote earlier I see you guys going down a lot of the same path we had to with convincing others you are a legitimate recreational user, especially for places usually reserved for non-motorised recreation.
How that will turn out I'm unsure.
Truth be told we get quiet a few motos on our trails up here and to be honest that doesn't bother me too much, but it depends on the trail as some cope with it others don't (ie when motors decide to use our dh trail for hill climbing) + We haven't got the population saturation as more city based areas so our trails don't tend to get over crowded. Most motos are responsible and can see how much work we put in so take care not to cause damage, they actually do a good job at keeping the trails groomed, and I'm sure the vast amount of ebike riders would be the same
Sadly we do get the occassional tool though who wants to sit on the front brake and dig ruts by spinning the back wheel, or ruin the flow of the trail by straight lining the corners that are too tight to get the big bike around at speed. They sour overall opinion. Unfair but that's life/
Sure we get tools on mtbs too but it's harder for them to do as much damage in the same time frame.
So I guess the other fear is you get the random tool who has no appreciation of the trail who now has an easier way to get out, stuff things up (not necessarily on purpose) and Buggar off into the distance never to be seen again.
Times and places for everything. There are trails and areas I don't think dh bikes should be allowed but in the right location on a properly designed trail they are the bees knees.
You guys are going to have to show ebikes can be just as minimal impact as mtb or walkers and thus should be oked on some trails. But likewise you're going to have to accept they may never be deemed appropriate for all trails and there are some spots where motorised assistance just won't be seen as legitimate.
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silentbutdeadly
has some good things to say
Fortunately, no. Most of them don't have the range or capability to manage our trails. Besides most are so poorly made that they often shake apart off the tar. I have seen that happen. Frankly, most of the current crop of ebikers I've seen here are a long way from being a threat to anyone except themselves through their own personal limitations but there is the odd over powered unit and the coppers know who they are. Again though cheapskate foolishness with batteries keeps them within town limits. Long may they remain cheap and ignorant.
ridethelightning
Squid
definately got some good points there.
i can understand the dificulty in getting trails"approved" for mtbs with fear of accidents with walkers, and there are some that would use ebikes as an excuse to get more amped up about bikes in general....
i can understand the dificulty in getting trails"approved" for mtbs with fear of accidents with walkers, and there are some that would use ebikes as an excuse to get more amped up about bikes in general....
Dark Knight
Likes Bikes
Rob - the first quote you've included above was mine, not sure precisely what you find objectionable there. As I stated previously, I'm of the age where I was close to the bleeding edge of MTB riding and nearly every trail we made and every existing trail we road was illegal. I even had the pleasant experience of a militant 'walker' whacking a stick in my spokes...an unpleasant night in the hospital and a few hundred dollars fixing my bike later...and you can imagine I was pretty pissed. And you may have an appreciation by what I mean by manically opposed individuals and my desire to avoid leading them to our locations...?Opps hyena you kinda been found out.... I was actually thinking people were being overly negative... but from your forum of enerds on sphere:
"I've also been careful to not post anything re: endless sphere forum as some of the things we discuss here (and some of the riding we do) is probably skating pretty close to legal boundaries (my heavens, how was that for a politically correct mouthful) and don't want to lead the more manically opposed individuals to a source of 'evidence'. No doubt those that find there own way here will be more curious and liberal in their ebike thoughts... "
" they are going to have to face it. we arnt going away, and theres not too many cops in the bushso thers jack shit they can do about it,....200w or... a whole lot more!"
You certainly help change my view... now you can fuck off with your ebike and if I come across u on a trail happy to tell you to ur face...
Back in the MTB days did we believe what we were doing was acceptable? You betcha. Was it technically illegal and against the flow? Sure was. Were there dicks that just cut trails anywhere with little care for the environment - and rode without regard for 'current' trail users? Sure where. Did this make it harder for general acceptance? Unfortunately yes. Did we try and 'hide' what we did from those that were opposed? Absolutely. Did we attempt to lobby appropriately and educate 'the opposition'. As hard as we could. I kinda feel that this is a repeat of what I experienced all that time ago...different circumstance sure, but there are parallels.
With regards to other comments on ES, read through all of the posts in this thread and bear in mind, that's what those guys have done and then commented accordingly. Yes there's be some very reasonable comments here but this also been some not thought out dribble.
Also not sure how Hyenas been found out...he started his post with 'get the pitchforks ready, here comes the bad guy' - tongue in cheek of course. His comment on ES 'Just posted on rotorburn. I've been a member there for years but never actually posted! Better roll up my sleeves, the gauntlet has been thrown down' Maybe the one that offends? Again - a look through the history of this thread - I've been called fat and lazy, told to fark off and in the message below yours politely referred to as a dick to name but a few...so the gauntlet has been thrown many times. I just endeavoured to either ignore it or pick it up each time and hand it back to the 'assailant' with a reasoned response. Hyena, after reading through the thread, came in with a couple of initial post with his perspective (the proverbial gauntlet) which was in no way confrontational in it's context.
And what has been the response to this - a pseudo injured comment re: comparing himself to the black man (poor choice of analogy perhaps - the comparisons to MTBs in the past I've tried to draw is more appropriate) and a paraphrase response saying he's a wanker. Don't recall seeing many (any?) responses to the actual bike/ebike related content of his posts. You'll note he makes specific reference that it's important to ride respectfully regardless of the steed and gave a couple of examples whereby people don't...ebike or no.
I've reread the entire thread to find any instances of confrontational comments on my part...and can't find any (other than perhaps in direct response to another's less than friendly approach). Obviously I'm looking through my own biased eyes so would be happy for anyone to point out anytime I've been surly, rude, difficult or anything like that - I'll apologise unreservedly as I did to Klips with his impression I was spoiling for a fight.
Another insult I see - did it make you feel better? The hypocrisy of a statement like this calling out Troll... Alright, I'm game. Quote me one troll like comment I've made in this thread and I'll eat my words.
It does appear that the thread has moved on with some more posts - but felt compelled to respond to these two posts.
The invitation to the endless sphere website stands. As I stated before, there is some pretty amazing stuff that goes on all all facets of e powered travel, and some pretty interesting stuff in relation to renewable energy and battery technology. The over riding ethos is one of seeking a more sustainable transport solution. Read a little and you'll see many threads questioning the intelligence of driving 2 tonnes of metal 20+ks for someone to get to work. If ebikes/emopeds can be commissioned for this task then it's my humble opinion that the world will be a better place.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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Hyena
Likes Bikes
Yeah that's not cool, I agree. Again I've found ebikers to be a pretty respectful bunch generally but I guess there's idiots in every scene. I know on some of the tight trails I've ridden the high powered thing really becomes a non issue as you can't use the power anyway. I guess this is trail specific though. I reckon downhillers are much more destructive than the vast majority of ebike riders.
Yeah those guys are a menace, agreed. Thankfully they seem to gravitate towards the above mentioned petrol kits and the cops are (rightly so) pretty hard on them.
I would have thought the sort of person who loses their license would only be using the ebike to commute on teh roads anyway, not suddenly take up recreational trail riding ??
Either way I refuse to help people who've lost their license for DUI
I guess again I'd like to see it come down to enforcing bad behavior rather than banning the hardware that most will use responsibly.
Maybe that's why I've never encountered bad attitudes or gone largely unnoticed to other trail riders, because I ride appropriately. I hear what you're saying though, that it only takes a few idiots to ruin it for everyone.
Thanks for posting your sensible and justified arguments from pure mtb riders view point :smile:
Art Vanderlay
Hourly daily
Wow, this thread exceeded my expectations. Those ebike people really like to type :Banane37:
Dark Knight
Likes Bikes
A very reasoned post there, similar in approach to the reasonable land owners and walkers in years gone past when MTB was in it's 'infancy', an analogy you've appropriately drawn above. It's the people like the prick who stuck a walking stick in my spokes that I found objectionable - not too mention a little sociopathic/psychopathic. Crazy - it was more than 20 years ago and I'm still pissed about...hold a grudge much DK...? :eyebrows:
Dark Knight
Likes Bikes
Hey, we're nerds...it's what we do!
Art Vanderlay
Hourly daily
Do you use ekeyboards?
Hyena
Likes Bikes
Good points thecat. I see what you're saying about where to draw the line between motos and bicycles and the battles that mtbers go through to get access to certain places. And I get that it's easier to lump anything with a motor on it into the one basket and call it a motorbike, but as someone who rides both I can tell you that they're chalk and cheese. Even my most powerful ebike (which at times I've at power levels up to 9000w) doesn't have nearly the impact of a dirt bike. I frequently ride fire trails around my area and occasionally encounter dirt bikes who've gotten around the fences designed to keep them out and they leave huge deep tracks and ruts in soft areas as you said. It's not just the weight, ebikes typically run standard mountain bike tyres and dont have the same sort of torque that comes with letting out the clutch on a motor with fat knobbies. Even with a really powerful ebike you have to try really really hard to get them to break traction. On that note, here's a picture I took on a damp trail recently. Combined bike and rider weight is just over 100kg which is probably not significantly different to the average rider on a lighter mountain bike. I'm running pretty fat low pressure tyres (felt berm masters, which I won't replace when they wear out) and many would probably be surprised at the impact my heavy, high powered ebike has
As for my racial comments, don't hate on me because my bike is black. haha. I'm pleased to see the negativity seems to be behind us and appreciate the current discussion.
As for my racial comments, don't hate on me because my bike is black. haha. I'm pleased to see the negativity seems to be behind us and appreciate the current discussion.
Hyena
Likes Bikes
I can one up the nerdiness on that, I have a centronics connector on my hotted up stealth fighter for battery diagnostics and reprogramming the controller. :eyebrows: Hate away. haha
thecat
NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
I was once setting up for a major event when two motos came ripping through the track. I jump the the ute and cut them off at the fire road. I think they were expecting a mouth full but I just explained that the event was in 2 days. We'd just put in a heap off work getting the track ready and told them of old bit of trail we didn't use any more.
Those 2 guys are now two of the most active and helpful members of our club.
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