eBikes - what's the current perspective

[Dark Knight]

Do you use ekeyboards?

OK - that made me chuckle. :first:

 

[Dark Knight]

I was once setting up for a major event when two motos came ripping through the track. I jump the the ute and cut them off at the fire road. I think they were expecting a mouth full but I just explained that the event was in 2 days. We'd just put in a heap off work getting the track ready and told them of old bit of trail we didn't use any more.

Those 2 guys are now two of the most active and helpful members of our club.

That's a great approach - and indicative of I guess what I was 'aiming' for overall. Tis amazing what us humans can achieve when we're communicative to and tolerant of one anther... Good news story!

 

[pink poodle]

Beck from my epic scooter sesh, @piston broke - was totes old school. Tech foot planted.

I wasn't going to read this thread anymore, but I saw how much activity it had received over the last couple of hours. So I have a read through and I see...well you ebikers have demonstrated that you either have very weak reading and comprehension skills or are just totally cock eyed. I can't figure out which. I and others posted plenty of non-hostile input in the early stages of this thread putting forth our reasons for disliking e-bikes. You have ignored them and written all criticism off as irrelevant negative ehaters. So most people appear to have become bored with your deliberate ignorance the thread has moved along and you have manipulated it into a fairly positive environment about the virtues of your electric chairs. Good for you.

In the meantime I found a pic on here in an old thread of another electronic device you guys might like to try. Here it is boosting a kicker:

You asked for juvenile.

 

[Alo661]

Completed your trading access form yet?

 

[mtb101]

why stop at eBikes, walking is quite hard as well, i've put on a bit of weight over the years and pretty hard to walk where I live (there's a few hills), so anyway, do you guy mind me riding this on the footpath?

 

[pistonbroke]

why stop at eBikes, walking is quite hard as well, i've put on a bit of weight over the years and pretty hard to walk where I live (there's a few hills), so anyway, do you guy mind me riding this on the footpath?

View attachment 289720

Don't worry 101. That black shirt is very sliming.

 

[pistonbroke]

If you're on an eBike KEEP OFF THE FUCKING MTB TRACKS. OK?

 

[pink poodle]

Don't worry 101. That black shirt is very sliming.

and most people will assume you are packing a big feed of beans and frank.


on topic though, these scooters really hoon when a smaller operator gets on them. one of my local drug dealers broke his leg a while back and got one for doing delivery runs on. he used to hammer at a speed that was definately unsafe for all concerned. but you know.....it was legal to have one, so it was ok.

 

[eastie]

Been stowing this one til the e-bike reared it's ugly arse...

Riding back from yarra trails out to the mountains a few months back, just turned off eastlink trail and onto the one leading back through Bayswater up towards Doongala and this knob on an e-bike sporting a full face dh helmet comes tearing past, on a sealed pedestrian/bike trail doing about 70-80 k's. If I had heard the fuckwit coming I would've done my best to remove him from the machine but unfortunately I didn't hear him coming. After he went past he tore past at least three other families I came across with small kids under 6 using the trail. Two of them were on the phone to the cops, plus the call I made = 3.

I keep riding out towards Doongala, and to my surprise a traffic cop has nabbed the areshat as the trail gets kettled through a rail underpass. Helmet's off and I see the cop take the bike key and he's emptying multiple mobile phones and other shit out of pockets as I slow down and approach. I said hello to the cop, let him know I was one of the many callers and asked if he was going to keep the keys which he confirmed. Great, the flog isn't going to catch me later down the trail. Having kids I know the rage that the families he tore past were feeling, so I warned the cop I was going to give meth head a serve which he nodded, but he drew the line at my request for a loan of his batton.

Had a chat to the cop for a bit until his divvy van support got there, and he mentioned something interesting about e-bikes. The gist of it is they great for drug dealers, thieves and they are up there as the weapon of choice for parkland rapists.

 

[pink poodle]

Had a chat to the cop for a bit until his divvy van support got there, and he mentioned something interesting about e-bikes. The gist of it is they great for drug dealers, thieves and they are up there as the weapon of choice for parkland rapists.

weapon of choice? being raped with a bike is a horrid thought. i would have imagined a different weapon to be more effective.

 

[Dark Knight]

Been stowing this one til the e-bike reared it's ugly arse...

Riding back from yarra trails out to the mountains a few months back, just turned off eastlink trail and onto the one leading back through Bayswater up towards Doongala and this knob on an e-bike sporting a full face dh helmet comes tearing past, on a sealed pedestrian/bike trail doing about 70-80 k's. If I had heard the fuckwit coming I would've done my best to remove him from the machine but unfortunately I didn't hear him coming. After he went past he tore past at least three other families I came across with small kids under 6 using the trail. Two of them were on the phone to the cops, plus the call I made = 3.

I keep riding out towards Doongala, and to my surprise a traffic cop has nabbed the areshat as the trail gets kettled through a rail underpass. Helmet's off and I see the cop take the bike key and he's emptying multiple mobile phones and other shit out of pockets as I slow down and approach. I said hello to the cop, let him know I was one of the many callers and asked if he was going to keep the keys which he confirmed. Great, the flog isn't going to catch me later down the trail. Having kids I know the rage that the families he tore past were feeling, so I warned the cop I was going to give meth head a serve which he nodded, but he drew the line at my request for a loan of his batton.

Had a chat to the cop for a bit until his divvy van support got there, and he mentioned something interesting about e-bikes. The gist of it is they great for drug dealers, thieves and they are up there as the weapon of choice for parkland rapists.

Yep - there's dicks in all walks of life, and on all kinds of steeds. If a hoon speeds in a V8 and kills a whole family should all V8s get banned? A drunk jumps in and drives his 4WD off the side of the road...dammit those 4WDs are evil machines. I can guarantee to you if some dick went speeding past me like that on a shared trail on an ebike I'd have more than something to say about - just like the MTBers in days of yore that didn't give a shit about other trail users or the natural environment. I also have 3 young kids and ride with them on shared paths and don't need that kind of shit - particualrly as it tarnishes the whole image. But how about a bit of a perspective here - it wasn't the ebike that was doing wrong, it was the knuckle head riding it. Same as any drink driver, speeder etc. Let's punish the people not the device.

Shame that the cops have that view - although it doesn't surprise me. I have a couple of good friends that are in the police however my experience by and large is not of the most liberal/open minded people in the world.

 

[Dark Knight]

Beck from my epic scooter sesh, @piston broke - was totes old school. Tech foot planted.

I wasn't going to read this thread anymore, but I saw how much activity it had received over the last couple of hours. So I have a read through and I see...well you ebikers have demonstrated that you either have very weak reading and comprehension skills or are just totally cock eyed. I can't figure out which. I and others posted plenty of non-hostile input in the early stages of this thread putting forth our reasons for disliking e-bikes. You have ignored them and written all criticism off as irrelevant negative ehaters. So most people appear to have become bored with your deliberate ignorance the thread has moved along and you have manipulated it into a fairly positive environment about the virtues of your electric chairs. Good for you.

In the meantime I found a pic on here in an old thread of another electronic device you guys might like to try. Here it is boosting a kicker:



You asked for juvenile.

OK - I'm a sucker for punishment, so I'll bite. Apologies to all as this is gonna be a looonng post.

Heres your 'early stage' posts

Post 1 (thread post 23)

I see one of these things tearing up my trails, I'm going to have something to say about. And it will be about as polite as moto riders get from me....

Post 2 (tp 28)

Hey Dark knight, how do I get one of bikes? You seem to know a fair bit about them...

A while ago in nsw there was a plague of morons riding electro assist pedal powered bikes that looked like step through scooters (vespa etc). They were a monstrous hazard to all road users and pedestrians. Eventually the rta banned them. Rightly so.

I have seen a few of these oversized bikes floating around Newcastle and the guy whole retails/wholesales/sells them in his bright yellow van....he comes off as a real dickhead that actually doesn't know anything about mountain bikes or the mountain bike community. Just a businessman who sees the dollars.

Post 3 (tp 30)

^^^ and the impact of acceleration. The impact of such a device as this on the trails would be much closer to that of a petrol powered motor cycle than a push bike.

I don't give a shit if the owners are fat or skinny. It is the machine I have issue with.

The engine is practically silent. One of these coming up a dh trail would surprise all 4m of intesitne out your bum hole on a blind corner or lander. At least with a petrol powered motor cycle you can sort of hear them coming...

As one of my chums not so politely put it to some moto riders on the couramba trail a while back...there's thousands of kms of fire road and trail for you guys to ride here. The club puts a lot of effort into this trail for mountain bikers to use. So fuck off.

Post 4 (tp 39)

that makes 3 of us. I call spam! as per my earlier 'where do you get them...?' this guy's too heavy on the tech spiel and justifications to just be a casual rider.




yeah I understand the differences. I have seen these things in action, and (as per my earlier post) had the pleasure of the company of someone trying to sell them. I hold my position. but I agree with you wholeheartedly about horses! great animal, but no place in national parks etc nor around people. especially the horses that get jittery.

Post 5 (tp 65)

Wow, only 2 posts in 4 years and yet I'm left with a lasting impression...

Obviously this guy was a wanker

Post 6

Well this changes my perspective a little. Time get juvenille....


Fuck the fucking fuckers.

I hope electric bikes are soon banned for being the pesky midlife crisis propelling nuisance they clearly are. No further justification would be needed.

Anyway my interest in this fraudulent thread of geek bike lies has ended.

I'll leave it at those for now. Out of all these posts, only your third had the remotest level of input to an actual reasoned discussion. I had already pointed out that there is a clear difference between pedal assist and high powered. Hyena also later came in and addressed the 'breaking traction' question amongst others.

The posts where either Hyena or myself responded to feedback:

4, 8, 11, 13, 16, 18, 22, 27, 41, 55...OK that's enough...I'm board of writing numbers.

For brevities sake I'll include only one of these in full:

Give me a pedal only bike worth the same coin as an e-bike and I'll show you a vastly better bike every time. I know what I'd rather ride; even though I'm fat and lazy.

No argmument there - dollar for dollar you will have far better components (forks, brakes, rear shocks etc. etc.) on a pedal only bike than an ebike as you're not burying cash into the drive system, controller, battery etc. You also pay a not insignificant weight penalty for the e components - something in the 8-10kg range would be reasonable. As to what one would rather ride, that's down to the personal preference.

I'd prefer not to see motorised or assisted bikes on trails simply because of the past confusion between mtbs and motorbikes. If there are people who can't tell the difference between an mtb or motorbike when access issues are discussed you can be sure the inclusion of these bikes on trails won't help the mtb cause.

I see it as the thin end of the wedge. The power limit doesn't matter. People will latch onto the fact it has a motor and will again lump mtbs with motos.

This is a very valid point which needs to be carefully managed. Being at (I believe) somewhat of the forefront of trying to get mountain bike acceptance over a couple of decades ago, I am sensitive to this. Solution...not sure, but perhaps for once the legislative environment has solved that for us...?

When I don't feel like pedaling, I ride this.

Understood. There are electric replacements for dirt bikes as well, some with pegs (even some real cheap stuff coming out of china), some that are still partially bikes (i.e. they still have pedals). You can build these up from frames and I've seen some on you tube that do 0-50 in 2 seconds, can hit 100+kmh, have a 60-150k range (depends on terrain and speed obviously), weigh around 50kgs (easier to lift), can take it on the train discreetly, are silent and you can still pedal home/back to the ute if you run out of juice.

The disadvantages - huge unsprung weight in the rear wheel (to get those speeds you're sticking a 10kg hub motor in the rear wheel) which is a biggie and also range limitation - you may get 60-150ks but once you're out of juice, you're a couple of hours from another ride, not simply a pour from the jerry can. These aren't eMTBs though...

Seems like a downhill solution to me - downhillers always getting shuttles to the top of the hill because they are too unfit to ride to the top!

Or is it like a golf cart instead of walking?

Yep - they're used a lot for this in europe by all accounts. Either to save the chair lift fee or to access trails that the lifts don't go to...or simply so you can get more runs in.

I welcome the new pedal assisted ebikes into the mtb world.
If it reduces the barrier of entry into the sport then good.

If it means more people on trails then it also means more people advocating for more and better trails.

If it means that more mates can come along on rides because they don't need to fear a 30k slog out at the Oaks because they'll be assisted by an electric motor then that's awesome.
It also means not worrying about having to wait 5-10 mins for those walking up hills cause they can't make it.

You generally don't hurt yourself going up a hill, you hurt yourself going down a hill.
The assisted pedaling is not going to cause more problems there.
And the flip side is that if you're not as fatigued, you're probably not going to make as many stupid mistakes going down hills either.
Another positive is that you're going to be able to ride further and enjoy the ride more.

Agree with all of that - but then it's supporting my point of view so I'm likely to aren't I :bounce:

This I think is an area that you need to be quite careful. You're right, at the moment these eBikes are viewed the same as bicycles in the eyes of the law. If you (I use the term collectively here, not specifically yourself Dark Knight) start pushing the boundaries though then this may force the hand of law makers to reconsider that position.

If people hang their hat on the argument that "it has free access to anywhere a bike can go" then the easiest option for regulators is to say "Well, you know what.. this thing isn't just a bike. It's more than a bike, it's not safe to mix it with regular bicycles and pedestrians, nor is it safe to use on the road. I don't know what the answer is, so from now on you can only use it in specific designated places" -- Similar, I think (haven't looked into it), to what has happened with Segways and the like here? If I understand correctly I believe that Segways are essentially illegal to use anywhere other than private property.. I wouldn't like to see eBikes end up the same.

That's a valid point. It's funny, because in the ebike world many rail at the 250W limitation...the US (although actually state by state) has far more liberal regulations with up to 1kw (1.33hp) being accepted. I hadn't really stopped to think how the lower restriction may actually aid in there eventual acceptance. Bear in mind the current restriction has three main facets - no more than 250W continous assistance can be supplied, all assistance scales back when the speed hits 25kph and the assistance can only be driven from pedal cadence/pedal pressure. Given those three restrictions, I don't see them as remotely a danger...however again that's my opinion.


Good to see some reasoned discussion around the topic though. My synopsis so far of the 'general perspective', there are the purists that say if it aint all human input, it don't belong...fair enough (although I don't agree for the reasons stated). Amongst 'the others' there appears to be a split on trails and downhilling. For trails...hmmmm....not so sure - particularly when there are counterloops/2 way systems as the potential for a higher speed collision does increase (e assisted would improve uphill speed). Downhilling - mostly yes. Get's the 'crappy' slog out of the way a little easier and allows for more downhill fun.

Thanks to all for the contributions. It's always a pleasure to have a nice debate, and to get some good and valid point of views which potentially can and should change my own perspective.

Reading and comprehension? Cock eyed? I'll allow others to be the judge of that...

 

[uglybob]

based on the people on ebikes i've seen on the paths around Perth, i'd hate to see those same people on the MTB trails out at Kalamunda.

one guy specifically on a modified Specialized hardtail - tears around at way above 40km/h on the shared paths, with no regard for anyone else on the paths.

i've ridden one of the new Specialized Turbo bikes and i can see why people would want one - but based on the attitude of 80% of the ebikers i see on a regular basis (and i commute every day on my bike), i'd hope they don't make it offroad.

 

[pink poodle]

Reading and comprehension? Cock eyed? I'll allow others to be the judge of that...

you do so well at supporting my case, thank you for your help. i know a good optomotrist when you are ready.

 

[pink poodle]

OK - I'm a sucker for punishment, so I'll bite. Apologies to all as this is gonna be a looonng post.

i knew it! a sucker for punishment hey? i was always suspicious you and hyena knew each other from an SnM swingers forum, thanks for the confirmation. but i'll be this is the first time in a looonng time you have had to apologise to anyone for giving them a long posting.



.....because i know you like it juvenile.

 

[eastie]

Don't think I mentioned anything about wanting them banned, or that all e-bike riders are guilty by association. I just mentioned my one experience, and a general assessment the cop had about their popularity amongst a particular demographic.

 

[pink poodle]

Don't think I mentioned anything about wanting them banned, or that all e-bike riders are guilty by association. I just mentioned my one experience, and a general assessment the cop had about their popularity amongst a particular demographic.

are you saying these ebikers are here to peddle a different type of e? thats a bit of a long bow to draw, even for a mountain biker.

 

[eastie]

if that's your thing - go for it, I hear they are great for that purpose. I also hear reports that normal people ride them as well but that's second hand info - I don't know anyone other than a 12yo son of a mate who has one? I saw a specialised one a few weeks back if you want to go full upmarket on it?

 

[pink poodle]

if that's your thing - go for it, I hear they are great for that purpose. I also hear reports that normal people ride them as well but that's second hand info - I don't know anyone other than a 12yo son of a mate who has one? I saw a specialised one a few weeks back if you want to go full upmarket on it?

issssssss it carrrrrrrbon bro? cccccccccaaaaauuuuusssseeeeee i hear thaaaaaaaats the go. aaaaannnnnnnnnnddddddddD im liiiiiike preeeeettty much nnnnneeeeeeeed the best.







(not meant to read as a stutter! just the way that heavy amphetamine uses 'gassers' seem to erratically drag a letter here and there as they talk.)

 

[Duane]

I think ebikes have their place. Sensible users as some here I presume are, will be able to enjoy their perceived benefits without upsetting other trail users. I say "their" benefits as for me the ability to climb "easier" or go longer "easier" or to commute to work without sweating "easier" is not why I enjoy mountain biking. I don't think I'm incapacitated enough yet to require an EZbike. I enjoy the hard climb that rewards me with the fun decent. I know a lot don't and are attracted to the easy option.
Take one of my other pursuits, archery. It takes a certain amount of proficiency to use a bow so most of the trouble makers who take it up soon give it away as most dickheads are after quick results without putting in the hard yards in my experience. Crossbows however do not take as much ability, skill, practice or dedication to master or even to operate so at my club and through a known retailer I have witnessed the growing trend of the quick result unskilled f'wit equipping themselves with crossbows. Sadly the legitimate users suffer and eventually the sport of archery suffers as the general public don't, can't or won't differentiate when they see the f'wits behaving poorly with crossbows.
I see EZbikes in the same light. Fine for the genuine enthusiasts who know and respect the trailriding etiquette, but the also provide the perfect tool for the witless fuckwits to damage the sport and reputation.
I don't think ebike enthusiasts need to focus on and earbash legitimate mountain bike enthusiasts for them to be accepted. For them to be accepted they need to find ways of limiting the f'wits tarnishing their chosen entertainments reputation.
I also see as they become more commonplace and cheaper (which I believe they will) even more potential for problems exists. Cheap + Easy = Fuckwit attraction factor increase.