eBikes - what's the current perspective

[ridethelightning]

But the majority here just don't want to do that. They want to ride without any electrical assistance even if it makes you quicker up the hills. Part of the ride is slogging your guts out to get to the top and making climbs you have struggled on in the past. Realizing you are now quicker than your mate and shit like that.
You all put up a great speel on these electric contraptions but come on give it a rest.
I doubt you will convert anyone on here and its sort of like me going to a fixie forum and spouting the benefits of gearing or a bmx site and going on about bigger wheels.
What size tire do you plug ins ride anyhow?

im not too sure that DK or that wild dog character were ever trying to convert anyone. i thought they were really more interested in finding out what other riders' opinions were regarding ebikes.....as the thread title suggests(so sorry if that sounds patronising, not intentional)

@ tyres- myself, maxxis dh hkwrm 26" front, hydenau k36 moped 16"rear(smaller for lower"gearing"/higher torque)

i feel it is really foolish to even compare ebikes to pure mtb or road bikes etc.
as in the vid just now, i used to feel so smug hooning past lycras at stupid speeds....as they had always done to me when i was commuting on an mtb. after a while i looked at it differently.........

its just not the same thing. there is NO comparison.

it is an awesome form of transport though,you can get so far so fast. and id definately recomend to anyone taking a 3+kw bike for a spin, even just for a laugh.

 

[floody]

No argmument there - dollar for dollar you will have far better components (forks, brakes, rear shocks etc. etc.) on a pedal only bike than an ebike as you're not burying cash into the drive system, controller, battery etc. You also pay a not insignificant weight penalty for the e components - something in the 8-10kg range would be reasonable. As to what one would rather ride, that's down to the personal preference.

Right, so basically what you're saying is that you have something that ends up weighing the same as two bicycles, so pretty much it becomes a low powered motorbike to get any kind of performance. I'll pass, give me a 10kg bike, over a 10kg motor on a 1#kg bike. I think that's well and truly past the assisted bicycle ballpark and into makeshift motorbike territory.

 

[Dark Knight]

No argmument there - dollar for dollar you will have far better components (forks, brakes, rear shocks etc. etc.) on a pedal only bike than an ebike as you're not burying cash into the drive system, controller, battery etc. You also pay a not insignificant weight penalty for the e components - something in the 8-10kg range would be reasonable. As to what one would rather ride, that's down to the personal preference.

Right, so basically what you're saying is that you have something that ends up weighing the same as two bicycles, so pretty much it becomes a low powered motorbike to get any kind of performance. I'll pass, give me a 10kg bike, over a 10kg motor on a 1#kg bike. I think that's well and truly past the assisted bicycle ballpark and into makeshift motorbike territory.

Apologies for the lack of clarity in my original post, the 8-10kg I referenced above refers to the total added weight of all the e components (it can actually be less) - the motor is 2-3kg, batteries typically 4-6kg and maybe a kg of wiring, controller etc. - pretty much like the bike Nico is riding in the YouTube video Ivan posted in 133 - check it out if you get the time...only a couple of minutes. I guess what I was trying to say before was that you definitely do pay a weight and cost penalty - and as ridethelightning stated previously, for pure lightness and nimbleness a quality MTB can't be beat.

As you can see, batteries are where the weights at - this applies for any e vehicle from tesla cars to rc planes. The motors comparatively are super light and super efficient. The technology is always improving but is far from competing with fossil fuels in energy density. If they even get remotely close though, it'll be pretty much bye bye to fossil fuels for energy and the ICE as a power source.

A 10kg motor is a completely different kettle of fish, as per what I wrote in that post you quoted from:

Understood. There are electric replacements for dirt bikes as well, some with pegs (even some real cheap stuff coming out of china), some that are still partially bikes (i.e. they still have pedals). You can build these up from frames and I've seen some on you tube that do 0-50 in 2 seconds, can hit 100+kmh, have a 60-150k range (depends on terrain and speed obviously), weigh around 50kgs (easier to lift), can take it on the train discreetly, are silent and you can still pedal home/back to the ute if you run out of juice.

The disadvantages - huge unsprung weight in the rear wheel (to get those speeds you're sticking a 10kg hub motor in the rear wheel) which is a biggie and also range limitation - you may get 60-150ks but once you're out of juice, you're a couple of hours from another ride, not simply a pour from the jerry can. These aren't eMTBs though...

Some of these beasts produce peak power of 12kw/16hp - do those types of bikes belong on technical single track - fark no. However in this day and age of global warming fears (justified or not - a completely separate debate), peak oil concerns, pollution fears and general environmental conciousness - I like the fact I can have an electrically powered, nimble small 'motorbike' that I can cycle/train it to a designated off-road area, kick arse for an hour or two and then cycle/train it home all for the cost of a couple of kws of energy kindly supplied by the solar array that's on my roof. The alternative is to break out the ute, load on the dirt bike, fill it with million year old dead animals and then fill everyone's ears with the screaming joy of high revving engines. Nothing against those that do this (and it's there tracks that I'd be sharing) just know what alternative I'd go for.

However the place for a debate on those bikes is on a dirt bike forum which is why I tried to delineate between the two early in the thread.

Hope this clarifies things and enjoy the trails.

 

[Dark Knight]

Don't think I mentioned anything about wanting them banned, or that all e-bike riders are guilty by association. I just mentioned my one experience, and a general assessment the cop had about their popularity amongst a particular demographic.

Right you are - you didn't. Just when the post started with

Been stowing this one til the e-bike reared it's ugly arse....

And ended with

The gist of it is they great for drug dealers, thieves and they are up there as the weapon of choice for parkland rapists.

My blinkers must have gone up, for which I apologise. Thanks for (kind of) clarifying that it doesn't apply to all of us. I must say, considering the cost, time, effort and skill that goes into building an ebike that can hit those kinds of speeds (70+), not too mention the voltage levels of the batteries and inherent dangers that provides, I'm surprised that drug dealers, thieves and parkland rapists would have the time, patience or knowledge to actually build the machine...but I guess if needs must.

Anyhoo - night all. Got sick kiddies and better snatch some shut eye where I can.

 

[Jim Junkie]

I think we're all missing the point here - what would you have in your trail bag for an e-bike?
And what's the wheel size?

Personally, I don't understand why you'd want to use one, seems to defeat the point for me. But each to their own, the real issue is does it impact me if someone else decides to use them?

Short answer - probably not for the pedal assist 250w varieties. Mind you, if they came motoring up behind me on a climb looking to pass on a climb because they had a battery helping them along, I'd wouldn't be inclined to pull over and let them pass. For me the biggest issue would be right of way - e-bikes would have to be prepared to give way to all other traffic IMO (as DK has indicated he does anyway). This is partly for safety, but more I think as it's less of an inconvenience when you get a push to get moving again. Additional trail damage seems unlikely given the relatively small weight increase we're talking about. Maybe riding style would be affected, but I haven't ridden one or followed someone on single track to find out, so can't comment there.

Additional crowding of the trails is a concern, but I hardly think exclusion is the way to tackle it.

Stealth bikes and throttled e-bikes (where you can just be pulled along) can stay the hell off the trails. They have no place there and are more akin to moto than mtb.

 

[Pastavore]

I think electric bikes, pedal assisted or not, are a fantastic short trip transport solution. Fast, green, cheap, etc.


But mountain biking is not about transport, you never hit up the singletrack to get to work. (OK, maybe some very very rare exceptions)


Mountain biking is a sport. So is motorbiking, but it is a seperate sport. We don't accept petrol powered bikes on the singletrack for lots of good reasons, electic powered bikes are not different.

And the 250w argument is not reasonable. Go check out the endless sphere forums linked earlier, see how easy it is to upgrade motors etc to up to 5kw.

 

[johnny]

What is so green about the eBiles? We burn coal for most of our elec generation, don't we?

 

[Ivan]

What is so green about the eBiles? We burn coal for most of our elec generation, don't we?

A significant amount of people now have solar installed on their homes (and is increasing at roughly 50MW per month).

People can also choose to pay extra for "green"power with their electricity provider.

Also, as the bicycle is the most efficient form of transportation, supplementing this with electric drivetrains (also very efficient) has to be damn good.

I sound like I'm defending these bikes, when I'm a fence sitter on the issue, but the hysteria they create amongst the MTB community is crazy (this is not aimed at you Johnny, just in general).

 

[Pastavore]

What is so green about the eBiles? We burn coal for most of our elec generation, don't we?

I probably should have said potentially greener


I think they tend to be greener (in addition to Ivan's points) because they are much less powerful than fuel burning motorbikes, and electric drivetrains can be very efficient.

 

[crank1979]

Greener than a car or motorbike, maybe. But we aren't agreeing they are greener than a regular bicycle for mtbing or commuting surely?!

Was I the only one who thought the riding in Hyena's video was irresponsible? Skidding through corners, going off track and I'm assuming a bit of wheel spinning every time he started moving from a standstill. A lot of the talk from the ebike supporters has been how they ride responsibly.

 

[Ivan]

Greener than a car or motorbike, maybe. But we aren't agreeing they are greener than a regular bicycle for mtbing or commuting surely?!

No. Not even close to a bicycle under human power alone, but far more efficient than a car or motorcycle.

Was I the only one who thought the riding in Hyena's video was irresponsible? Skidding through corners, going off track and I'm assuming a bit of wheel spinning every time he started moving from a standstill. A lot of the talk from the ebike supporters has been how they ride responsibly.

Hard to tell from that angle, but it seemed that way.

I think there is a big difference between pedal assist 250W bikes, and the throttle controlled bikes like the stealth.

I wouldn't want the high powered throttle controlled bikes riding on trails I built or maintained, but the pedal assist ones I wouldn't care too much.

 

[Rob_74]

Dark knights when foxp asked the power this was your response

G'day foxpuppet

Power as per european/australian limitations - 250W continuous (with maybe up to 500W peaks) and must be pedalling for power to engage .

What is the power of ur ebike?

me think u full of shit... u answered by quoting the limits for Europe and aust but forgot to say yeah I ride something way over these limits...

 

[Dark Knight]

Dark knights when foxp asked the power this was your response



What is the power of ur ebike?

me think u full of shit... u answered by quoting the limits for Europe and aust but forgot to say yeah I ride something way over these limits...

Hi rob - please see first post where I declare what my bike is

Hi All

My first post on this awesome site and thought I'd just canvas some opinion on this topic.

Full disclosure - I own a turn key cross country eBike (BH Neo Jumper) and plan on building from scratch another. I've done my fair share of trails and (very) light downhill riding through my life but as the age went past 40 and the weight well over triple figures couldn't quite keep it up (or did the weight exceed the triple figures because I didn't keep it up...?). Since acquiring the bike I've been out and about loads more and have cut 10kgs from the human engine...and am back commuting every day.

From my point of view there are actually some really good quality all purpose eMTBs being released that really open the trails (and roads) up for a whole new demographic of more elderly/infirmed people. With the ageing of the population I can only see this as being a good thing...

Couldn't see much discussion on this topic hereabouts so thought I'd kick it off.

What's the general consensus?

Look up the BH Neo Jumper and you'll see the specs - they're within the legal limit. At this stage I've only used it as a commuter due to time costraints - yet to turn over a pedal in anger on a trail on this unfortunately. You'll also note I mention I'll be building another from scratch...this one won't be under the 250w limit...but then nor will it be used on technical single track. You'll see in other posts that I haven't been shy with the fact that emotos exist and where I see them fitting in.

Hopefully this confirms that the only shit I'm full of is the waste by-product of my own personal 'fuel intake'... :smile:

 

[johnny]

nor will it be used on technical single track.

Just out of interest, where will you use it, fire trails, farm or something?

 

[Duane]

That's the thing with these EZbikes I see Johnny, once the self confessed overweight lazy riders get a taste of what we who work hard for it enjoy, are they really going to contain their lust for tearing it up on the single track? I guess many responsible "mountain bike" enthusiasts will, but as these bikes become cheaper and more available to the deadbeats who are only have their own interests in mind, I see high powered versions causing a stir. I just hope that the powers that be can tell the difference and don't restrict mountain bikes from places we currently enjoy. I have no problem sharing trails with the disabled riding aid pedal assist versions.

 

[Dark Knight]

Greener than a car or motorbike, maybe. But we aren't agreeing they are greener than a regular bicycle for mtbing or commuting surely?!

Was I the only one who thought the riding in Hyena's video was irresponsible? Skidding through corners, going off track and I'm assuming a bit of wheel spinning every time he started moving from a standstill. A lot of the talk from the ebike supporters has been how they ride responsibly.

Hi crank

To the first point - nope, absolutely not greener than a regular bike or MTB by a long shot. The battery manufacture and constant need recharge (except if by solar) puts paid to that.

With regards to riding responsibly - from my perspective that was more from the point of view of other path/trail users. When commuting or out for a leisurely spin on the shared paths at my whopping 25ks max speed, if there is a kid ahead on a scooter or bike...or just walking with their family, I slow down and ring the ole bell. Plenty of times when doing that I've been passed at speed by others on regular bikes (whether it be lycras or just MTBs) and some of them even take the time to throw an expletive my way just for kicks... Just because they're misguided toss pots doesn't mean bikes are bad...just means they are.

In a prior response Hyena indicated that this video was a trail he had scouted previously, when there were walkers and others users around, at which time he was moving at a sedentary pace (I beliveve). He then came back at midnight and had a right crack. Would I have ridden like that? Nope - but not for any 'morale' reason...at my current age and experience I have neither the ability or courage to do that. I do believe however that he took every precaution to ensure the only person he was endangering was himself.

Was it 'responsible'? In terms of self preservation, perhaps neigh...but then many would view serious downhilling as irresponsible from that perspective. And even challenging trail riding with taking blind corners at speed is irresponsible in the eyes of some, particularly if it is a 2 way loop. As long as primarily the danger you are creating is to yourself, go for it I say.

With regards to coming off trail - pretty sure that happens pretty often with both DHing and serious trail riding. The spinning the wheels things I can't attest to, however many of the controllers on ebikes do have automatic traction control and you are less likely to break traction with one of those. From a physics/engineering standpoint, by understanding that breaking traction is more a result of torque than power - a standard rider on a XC bike with triples @ the front and a 10 cassette at the back will be creating more torque at the lowest gearing ratio.

All just my perspective of course...

 

[Dark Knight]

Just out of interest, where will you use it, fire trails, farm or something?

Yep. Also out west we are lucky enough to have a few designated 'off-road' areas, many of which are fairly easily accessible from the metro area. These are specifically for trail bikes, quads etc. and are far more suited to a high powered ebike.

I also hope the authorities eventually introduce a kind of moped class, where these kinds of machines can be road registered. There will be Australian design requirements that will need to be adhered to as well as registration and insurance costs, but at least that would also open up all of the dirt roads that are available.

These however are more dirt bike comparisons - which is why I wanted to delineate between the 2.

Gotta go - have a house I'm still building...

 

[Rob_74]

Yep. Also out west we are lucky enough to have a few designated 'off-road' areas, many of which are fairly easily accessible from the metro area. These are specifically for trail bikes, quads etc. and are far more suited to a high powered ebike.

I also hope the authorities eventually introduce a kind of moped class, where these kinds of machines can be road registered. There will be Australian design requirements that will need to be adhered to as well as registration and insurance costs, but at least that would also open up all of the dirt roads that are available.

These however are more dirt bike comparisons - which is why I wanted to delineate between the 2.

Gotta go - have a house I'm still building...

Well I think a lot of the concern from mtbs is use of the ebikes on single track but it seems you saying you dont want to go there.. so now I not even sure purpose of this thread.

 

[Wombatone]

YEah, the milder eBikes really seem ridiculous to me.





MTB is fun because it's light and you bust out heaps of energy. Motorbikes are fun because they're grunty and fast. Why would you make something that removes those two elements leaving you with only the lesser parts of each concept?

Probably the same people that gave us 650b ? Now soon all stuck with a lesser concept.

 

[crank1979]

All just my perspective of course...

I obviously have a slightly different perspective.

I'm not sure I'd agree on a regular mtber putting out the same amount of torque, but even if they did the greater power output of the ebike in the video certainly makes a difference to how the bike can be ridden on singletrack. I think the ebike will be putting out more torque on a flat trail like that shown in the video compared to a mtber in the middle ring on the same trail.

I think part of rising responsibility is having some respect for the trail being ridden and also the work done by people to get the track built. I didn't see any of that in the video.

Ebike for commuting, no worries. On singletrack I think Hyena's video is the perfect example of why they shouldn't be allowed.