Plastic bags, climate change, renewable energy,

[Oddjob]

I don’t know why I’m arguing with you over this though...

Because you're an engineer, and engineers are big dummies who never take into account cost.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/08/climate/carbon-tax-united-nations-report-nordhaus.html

https://www.iisd.org/library/nordhaus-nobel

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[hifiandmtb]

Rationing costs nothing. Might affect 'conomy but hey, 'conomy comes first.

No amount of price modelling can force a curves like these:

 

[Oddjob]

Rationing costs nothing. Might affect 'conomy but hey, 'conomy comes first.

Everything costs something. Rationing would lead to unemployment, probably in very specific industries. This in turn creates political resistance... hold on.

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[hifiandmtb]

Are you ever going to admit that rationing is necessary, or will you continue rabbiting along ignoring the bleeding obvious?

 

[pink poodle]

himan race

That is my kind of race!

 

[beeb]

I don't think OJ's arguing with what's needed, nor was Haakon. What they are saying (or how I read it) is the masses either truly don't believe it's happening because they "can't see any changes" around them or just don't want to create action about what's coming, because any minor inconvenience is all too hard in this "What about me?" world we have these days. And at the moment, any worthwhile changes driven from politics is going to result in grumpy voters. Talking pragmatically, politicians aren't there to serve us long term anymore - they just try to do whatever will get them elected in the next term. Unless there's a surge in interest/calls to action from the public, which unfortunately isn't going to happen due to low awareness/care-factor, nothing is likely to change.

 

[pink poodle]

The solution is at hand! Just need to change the location of the problem...

 

[hifiandmtb]

Unless there's a surge in interest/calls to action from the public, which unfortunately isn't going to happen due to low awareness/care-factor, nothing is likely to change.

Exactly.

And it's a graph like this that should get the populous concerned:

But we want to solve this from within our current lifestyle models. Just buy some green stuff & the problem is solved.

I bet they don't show graphs like that at school...

 

[beeb]

General populus: "So I can do whatever I want for the next 10 years then science will have come up with a way to solve it?"

 

[cokeonspecialtwodollars]

General populus: "Oh cool that's like one of those spirograph things?"

Fixed.

 

[cokeonspecialtwodollars]

Maybe a pedantic question @hifiandmtb because both graphs show the same general trend but why are they different? Most obviously the big spike above 30 Gt around 2000 doesn't appear on the top one.

 

[hifiandmtb]

Not entirely sure, but the blip can be seen in the long term CO2 atmospheric numbers being tracked by NASA:

Got me curious now!

[edit] Maybe the top graph was data-smoothed?

I don't think the peak was a peak as such, the dip was related to the fall of the Russian economy:

http://www.anthropocenemagazine.org/2019/06/63142/

 

[Oddjob]

Are you ever going to admit that rationing is necessary, or will you continue rabbiting along ignoring the bleeding obvious?

Ration what to whom in what quantities at what price? If you can answer that question for everyone at all times for everything, sure lets ration.

A simpler solution is to price carbon and let people answer those questions for themselves.

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[silentbutdeadly]

Ration what to whom in what quantities at what price?

Exactly... imagine we legislate to ration individuals or households to predetermined kilojoules of food per day and predetermined megajoules of energy use per day.

It would work if it could actually be made to work. Therefore, it won't work.

Pricing signals work to a point as do resource constraints (though there aren't many of those yet) but ultimately how do you put a pricing signal on consumption when economic growth is the bastion of our current way of life?

And the mastodon in the muesli is the fact that cutting emissions is now only one part of the problem. The other part is the adaptations required to ensure when can adjust to the changes we have already put in train...and we've put almost no resources against that ledger to date.

 

[hifiandmtb]

Ration what to whom in what quantities at what price? If you can answer that question for everyone at all times for everything, sure lets ration.

It’s discussed in that document you professed to read & comprehend, many sections discuss rationing but mainly look at “What would climate mobilisation look like?”.

Particularly read the introduction that discussed what parallels were achieved in WWII, demonstrating that difficult, lifestyle affecting legislation can be implemented.

And the same document also discusses the incredible stupidity of relying on carbon pricing alone to fix the issue.

Winning slowly is the same as losing.

And can you stop the straw man approach to this?

 

[ashes_mtb]

Will I still be able to get this when we're on rations?

Hennessey Goliath 6x6 revealed in the metal

Famed American tuner rolls out production version of gratuitous 6x6 Silverado

www.whichcar.com.au

It's horrifying to consider where we're at and headed, and then see that stuff like this is still being produced and lauded. And QANTAS throwing out massively discounted airfares being trumpeted in the media.

 

[ashes_mtb]

It’s discussed in that document you professed to read & comprehend, many sections discuss rationing but mainly look at “What would climate mobilisation look like?”.

Particularly read the introduction that discussed what parallels were achieved in WWII, demonstrating that difficult, lifestyle affecting legislation can be implemented.

And the same document also discusses the incredible stupidity of relying on carbon pricing alone to fix the issue.

Winning slowly is the same as losing.

Doubt very much that we'll see this happen, but I'm in favour of it.

I'm like most humans, driven by wants as well as needs. Could I bring myself to tell my daughter she can't represent her state in her chosen sport because of the impact of driving her to training and flying to competitions? Could I tell my son he can't go mountain biking because we're a decent drive from trails? Could I convince my wife to walk the kids to school rain, hail or shine? Could I give up camping trips with the family, and just holiday in towns I can get to on the train? The answer is no, unless finances or rations etc dictated it.

 

[hifiandmtb]

Exactly @ashes_mtb , if it was a level playing field, we'd adapt just fine.

 

[Oddjob]

It’s discussed in that document you professed to read & comprehend, many sections discuss rationing but mainly look at “What would climate mobilisation look like?”.

Particularly read the introduction that discussed what parallels were achieved in WWII, demonstrating that difficult, lifestyle affecting legislation can be implemented.

And the same document also discusses the incredible stupidity of relying on carbon pricing alone to fix the issue.

Winning slowly is the same as losing.

And can you stop the straw man approach to this?

I read it and it will remain false equivalence as many times as I read it. This is not war and no-one will percieve it as such. If you do, then you are most welcome to take up arms but I suspect you won't get far without popular support. Rationing and other command and control means are a socialist fantasy.

I agree we're not winning. I'm already pretty sure we are going to end up with geo-engineering followed by carbon pricing in 50 years once we've hit the panic button.



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[hifiandmtb]

Not war yet but it will create wars.

This ping pong between you & me seems to be:

Hifi: what should be done
OJ: what is likely to happen

I’ve never professed to opinionated what’s likely to happen, other than what will happen to this planet if we don’t change the CO2 emissions curve.