The Handmade vs Handmade argument

[MrPlow]

Have not read all this post, but have been keeping a bit of an eye on it.
Grip took the words out of my mouth, I would rather see a bike that is labelled "Robot welded" than hand welded.
Not only do robots weld nearly perfectly, but they do it (almost) consistantly too.
They do not turn up to work stoned or hung over.
They do not have bad days.
They do not do "Friday" jobs (couldn't be farked about the quality, "its the weekend!!"

As for the other areas of paint, fit and quality, this is a quality control issue, not a handmade issue anyway.
Smaller botique companies endeavour to offer a "different" product to suit a particular niche'. Some of the time this can be of benifit, some of the time you are really just paying to be different.
Smaller companies are not really (usually) cash positive enough to put big $$$ into team sponsorship or R&D.
Unfortunately IMHO a lot of R&D that is done by big bike companies is really done by the marketing department. At least smaller companies usually try and come up with what they percieve to be 'real' improvements to the design I guess?
Finally, there is the assumption that "it costs more so it must be good".
This is a corker! I have tried it and it works, Someone once told me you should double what you think you (or your product) is worth. Usually it works, but even if you loose half your sales you still make the same $$$.
And even I fall sucker to more $$$ = more quality. But is it really? If a Banchee cost half the price of a Raceline, would it be as pimp?
Anyway, Sorry I got waaay off topic there :?
Basically I say handmade: I don't care, I prefer robot.
QUALITY IS WHERE IT'S AT :!:

 

[S.]

Alright, I just sent emails to Intense, Banshee, Iron Horse, Foes, .243 Racing, Yeti, Turner, Craftworks and Merida, with a few questions about how, why, and where they manufacture their frames.

A couple of links to check out are:

http://www.merida.com/s0_global/main_control.php?group0=tech&group1=robot

http://www.merida.com/s0_global/main_control.php?group0=about&group1=factory

 

[Dane]

Hey Grip,
from your educated/experienced perspective are there any particular manufacturers you'd avoid due to poor welding?
or do you usually only find failures when someone has abused their bike and gone harder on it than what it was designed for?

 

[S.]

Hey Grip,
from your educated/experienced perspective are there any particular manufacturers you'd avoid due to poor welding?
or do you usually only find failures when someone has abused their bike and gone harder on it than what it was designed for?

I doubt he's going to answer that, particularly in public, as it could be construed as libel.


Anyway, reply from Intense (not much info but still):


Dear bicycle company,
>
> I'm doing some research on manufacturing methods for bicycle frames (in
> particular, high-end mountain bikes), and as such am group-mailing you
with
> a number of questions (in other words, this isn't junk mail). You have
> probably noticed that a fairly wide variety of MTB companies have been
> addressed in this email; my aim is to gain knowledge of how frames are
> manufactured, and compare the different methods between different TYPES of
> companies (in other words, I'm not using this information as a reflection
on
> your company specifically). Please note that I am not directly comparing
> bikes directly for the purpose of deciding which to buy, I'm after
> information about general manufacturing techniques over the whole line,
> rather than on any one model. I would appreciate very much if you could
> answer the following questions:
>
> 1. Do you manufacture your frames largely in-house/locally, or do you
> outsource completely (especially overseas)?

All frames are manufactured in Temecula, California using raw materials from the U.S.A.
>
> 2. Which parts of your manufacturing process are automated/robotic (for
> example, CNC milling, welding) and which are done "by hand"/manually?

Mill and lathe work are conducted on a CNC machine, welding and assembly are done by hand
>
> 3. Why do you choose to have your frames manufactured in the LOCATION that
> they are (for example, cost of manufacturing, labour rates, build quality,
> ability to custom-make frames/parts for specific needs) as opposed to
common
> alternatives (eg offshore/locally/in-house)? We specialize in the manufacturing of high end race frames.

Our frames are regarded to as the "Ferrari" of our industry due to the personal attention each frame recieves in the manufacturing process. You will not find a higher quality DH or CC frame that combines both form and function.
>
> 4. Why do you choose to have your frames manufactured in the PROCESS that
> they are, especially in regards to cost and quality? (for example, CNC
> machining vs hand milling, robotic welding vs hand welding, and any other
> methods vs their comparable alternatives, especially if one method is
> automated/robotic whereas the alternative is not)

We make a high end frame. It would not be a conducive profit center if we utilized high dollar robotics to produce the limited amount of frames that we make each year

 

[dugfast]

does it improve the quality that much on a handmade bike? i mean, on a handmade bike wouldnt there be more chance of a defect than on one done on a machine that manufactures (spelling?) each exactly the same?

 

[MUNGUS]

that wat somebody was saying before about robot built bikes but bikes aren't built by robots so i'm not sure wat ur saying

 

[S.]

that wat somebody was saying before about robot built bikes but bikes aren't built by robots so i'm not sure wat ur saying

Some are, some aren't. I'm in the process of trying to find out how many Taiwan-made frames are, seeing as apparently no American ones are.

 

[FOX]

Hi Guys,

I wish I was there, but I'm stuck in cold wet Vancouver (although it is getting sunny today).

Here is my story:

I spent a few years sampling workmanship from all over the world, mainly US, Canada, and Taiwan.

- The best quality I found came from Taiwan.
- The cost of production was higher in Taiwan, but becuae the factories buy in such high volumes the cost of material was 1/3 that of North America.
- In North America tha smallest prodcution runs I could find a factory willing to do was 200 - 300 units. In Taiwan my minimum is 40 units.
- A huge problem I found in North America, was that if I had a problem with a run, the factories wouldn't back up their work. In Taiwan I have had no problems with the factories replacing any parts that did not pass my QC.
- In Taiwan there are so many tools available - it is a designers heaven. In north America you have to get all your own tooling made, which = huge $$$$$.

NOTES:

- frames in Taiwan are not pumped out by machines - their all done by hand as well.

- Balfa is still made in house, and will not be moved to the RM factory (very liitle RM frames are made in house - the majority are made in Taiwan). Balfa will, if anything be moved into the CCM/Oryx Factory.
And there has been talk of them moving to Taiwan for 05.

- You should look deeper in to Keewee. As far as I know they are produced in Taiwan as well. Infact I know that with out a doubt that some of there frames are made in Taiwan.

FOX (eric @ .243)

 

[wombat]

Aha! Thanks Mr. Fox, I really can't work the search function properly....

 

[cam-o]

- You should look deeper in to Keewee. As far as I know they are produced in Taiwan as well. Infact I know that with out a doubt that some of there frames are made in Taiwan.

aaaaah, nope.
Made in Noo Zulland bro, that's why they're so choice.
Or at least the Chromozone's, ChromoEight's, Chromolite's etc etc are. Not 100% sure of the entire range but the bigger ticket items are definitely NZ.

 

[Ev]

lotecsiriusconcept, I have seen at least 3 white BB7s.
My mate has a white BB7 frame for same (or he did anyway)
and i have seen at least 2 others around.

 

[dhd]

What you're making out there, is that the Taiwanese welders each weld 5 times as many frames as the Keewee guy (Trevor?). What you're neglecting to mention, is that the Taiwanese welders aren't actually designing the bikes, test riding the bikes, dealing with bike shops, dealing with warranties, talking on the phone to customers, drawing up the catalog/website, talking to the team riders, buying/mitring/cutting/treating tubing, machining up bits and pieces, tapping threads, and all the other stuff that Trevor is doing.

Correct. As an importer most of what you've listed above is MY job and the sales, development and R&D guys at Keewee (Yes there's more than one guy at Keewee).
On the other hand Da Bomb as a Taiwanese company are actually one of the few who have guys with knowledge gained in the good ol' US of A who actually ride and race DH driving the show. They, along with input from Europe the USA and even us here, develop the frames and contract the frame building out to factories who they know are good at particular items. Yeah sure a lot of the stuff is taiwan copy-esque but when you make subtle changes you gotta know enuf to be sure you aren't gunna screw the whole thing up!

 

[dhd]

- You should look deeper in to Keewee. As far as I know they are produced in Taiwan as well. Infact I know that with out a doubt that some of there frames are made in Taiwan.

Yep the lower end of the Keewee range. That is the Keewee Stealth Hardtail frame is made in Taiwan.....sourced by......surprise surprise..... the same guys that do Da Bomb! It's another incarnation of the same frame that was the center of the .243 / Da Bomb CR8 bunfight.
The rest are definitley hand made in NZ in production runs of about 10 frames at a time...... I have talked to guy that does them. He is a really nice guy. You should buy one to keep him employed.

 

[bb7 rider]

mr fox,

umm no balfas are finishing the 04 run in montreal any others will be made with rocky and in 05 they will be moved to st georges about 3 hours from montreal however 05 is still being discussed but taiwan i dont think is on the books they would more likely stop construction than move their, any one have any beef with what i said talk to jean @ procycle and he will bac at up.

and bikeman baldrick just how many white bb7s are there in aus and what is your source for this?

 

[FOX]

mr fox,

umm no balfas are finishing the 04 run in montreal any others will be made with rocky and in 05 they will be moved to st georges about 3 hours from montreal however 05 is still being discussed but taiwan i dont think is on the books they would more likely stop construction than move their, any one have any beef with what i said talk to jean @ procycle and he will bac at up.

Sorry, I should have elaberated.

My is info is from Balfa, but now that Procycle has pushed out all the origional balfa guys, my info is a little weak.

I know of the st. georges location.
I don't think they'll ever make balfas 100% in Taiwan, but they will most likely move into the same system they use for Rocky and Oryx, where a percentage of the frame is made in Taiwan, and then finished in Canada.
I think they should - I would live to see the price piont come down, and see more minute mans outs there.

FOX

 

[bb7 rider]

They hardly made any profits on the minuteman frame it was a peice of art and would be a shame if its design was changed.

 

[bb7 rider]

if you know stephane, david or emmanuel ask them about the minuteman it was run at almost cost, they had plans to change the design in 04 to make it cheaper but it was more like every other cro mo hardtail. bent oval tubing rather than the cut welded box section rear end it is. but of course extra work costs more $$$$ bills

 

[FOX]

if you know stephane, david or emmanuel ask them about the minuteman it was run at almost cost, they had plans to change the design in 04 to make it cheaper but it was more like every other cro mo hardtail. bent oval tubing rather than the cut welded box section rear end it is. but of course extra work costs more $$$$ bills

Ya - I spoke to emmanual about hose changes a long time ago.

I would ask them, but they are all gone. It is only Procycle employees now, and I don't really know any of them.

FOX

 

[FOX]

They hardly made any profits on the minuteman frame it was a peice of art and would be a shame if its design was changed.

Agreed.

FOX

 

[Dunga]

another point to be made with the "handmade" made frames (on the QC) side is, if you damage the frame and it is repariable, can you go back to Taiwan and have the same guy repair the frame.

if the frame is outside of its warintiee.



Well I know I can say this about Curtis ( I live very close to the place they are made) ,and more than likely about BMW, Keewee aswell, that you could contact them to have it repaired and they would be more that happy to help you.


Would the guys at the big firms who source from Taiwan give a toss about you, I dont think that they would.