The Handmade vs Handmade argument

[cam-o]

Hmmm, 2stepin you've kinda made the opposite point unintentionally. On a per meal served basis maccas actually cock it up way less than the vast majority of the smaller pricier cafes. Why? Coz they have a step by step process for every burger that is well documented and adhered to. Same goes for any manufacturing process. If the process for making the product is absolutely the same every time then that's the basis of quality control. If the process relies on the subjective judgement and moods of a human then variances can creep in, we all have off days. I'm not gonna bag Balfas or claim their manufacturing is no good. For what it's worth, I've had a brief ride and it seemed pretty cool. There's other rides I like more but there's plenty I like less. The argument however that a made in Canada (or USA) sticker is worth a couple large is a wank. AMB said it a while back about a Rocky Mountain and it was a wank when they said it too. If it feels good ride it, but don't be thinking that boutique is by definition better.

 

[S.]

remember the term mass production?, yeh i think thats wat i was refering to, call me stupid but i thought that was the argument there, mass-produced handmade vs handmade

rik's argument, though interesting, obviously means he didn't read my post.

True, but it's not the only argument against the idea that Taiwanese = low quality.

 

[Agent Orange]

cam-o have you ever been to mc donalds?

anyway, socket, that was the point i was making....there are numerous reasons why tiawanese production sucks

 

[S.]

Taiwan r0x0rz my j0x0rz.

I think this thread is about over...

 

[cam-o]

cam-o have you ever been to mc donalds?

Yep, plus I used to manage a Pizza Hut, the cock up rate there was pretty low too, cept when we got hungry
I'm not saying that maccas food is necessarily good, but it is generally more consistent than the 'boutique' food joints.

 

[bazza]

well i dint read past the first stage but im going to state what i think. however it looks likes it has turned into a fastfood battle by camo-o's reply that i just read......oh well going by the first page, i would say its more to do with the quality control that goes into the bike and the expertise/knowlege taht the builders put into it. but yeah a repco is handmade as welll. ok changed view point
production line sweat shop = not handmande
single person building one frame = handmade.
well thats in my opinion anyway. if some tiwanese person built a frame on his own that would count as handmade enough for me. however large scale production lines are another thing. but yeah, this is insteresting.

 

[Agent Orange]

cam-o im a chef and i know a little about it, we have to study it during tafe....I can guarentee you mc donalds has more stuff ups than a high grade commercial kitchen

 

[bb7 rider]

i think every maccas burger is a stuff up same as for pizza hut my handmade roll will kick ass over a production line sauce gun extracting cheese measuring seasame seed counting burger but at least its hand made.

 

[Fat_Ride]

Holy shit...
I go to bed for one night and look what happens!!!
It's only 8.40am Sunday morning where I am and it is way to early to go through all of those posts.
Good posts guys, but I have to agree with Socket and say it is getting out of hand and it should probably come to a close, especially now that the frames are being compared to McDonalds and pizza hut!!!

 

[Grip]

Now THIS is the best thread I've never been involved in!!!!!! Wow... what great arguements, bullshit and opinions all laid out next to each other as "facts". I just wish I could remember what the original post was even about so I could get involved!

 

[Fat_Ride]

Grip, We'd love you to enter this thread but educated answers and opinions would be of no benefit now that we are talking of Maccas.

 

[ona rampage]

Re the fast food vs cafe; sure you will get more stuff ups in a fast food venue, but statistically the error rate will probably be lower. It is a volume output; if Maccas put out 50 times more burgers then the cafe in one day, and Maccas have 10 burgers returned as wrong and the cafe 5, Maccas is still better statistically.

Re the point on quality control in the Taiwanese factories; it is obviously there. There are a number of frame snappages of course (look at Naz's old bike) but they are not unproportionatly high. If it was you would see manufacturers getting bagged out big time on this forum (something like all giant frames snap or something, and no I am no bad mouthing giant)

Once again, look at it statistically; if they (Taiwan factory) are putting out 20 times more frames then an Canadian/USA factory, and have twice the number of broken frames.... (and I not saying that is the numbers).

I think I recall Grip talking about the frame manufacturer who he sees most on his benches (and statistically high breakage rates) and if I am right it has a made in America sticker on it (and a high price)....

 

[toodles]

There are so many other factors involved in the quality difference arguments. Think of the different types of tubing available to those two markets, the different education levels available to the welders, the equipment the get to work with... Gee.. suppose that stuff could have an effect either. Really though, if experience counts for anything, then a Taiwanese frame should have a lot going for it. I ride a Taiwanese bike, and while the welding looks more industrial than artisan and minimalist it works fine. The only time I'd be wary of an Asian made frame would be where boutique materials (magnesium, thermoplastic, titanium, carbon fibre) are involved. But for aluminium or chromoly steel frames, they've got the experience and the know-how. Hmmm... we could always get 100 frames from each country, bring them here, strip them, dye them, Halide and x-ray them and I'll put up the results for everyone to compare.

PS. I managed a burger joint for a couple of years and we got waaaay less complaints than I did working at one of Brisbane's most respected restaurants.

 

[dunk]

PS. I managed a burger joint for a couple of years and we got waaaay less complaints than I did working at one of Brisbane's most respected restaurants.

Just a little story about products and where you purchase them from, and your expectations.

Our industry body in America did a test where the same product was sold through three different retailers. On at the equivalent of Space Furniture, one the equivalent of Grace Bros/David Jones, and one the equivalent of Kmart. All were sold at the same price in all three outlets. The majority of complaints came from the most expensive store, less from the middle level store and, virtually none from the lowest end store.

The assumption was that if you bought it at Kmart it's probably not the best product and was bound to break so I won't bother taking it back, and the most expensive store the assumption was I bought it at Space Furniture theres no way it should break.

 

[toodles]

So true. You wouldn't believe the number of times people complained about stuff, we just took it back to the kitchen, re-arranged it, reheated it and gave it back to them and they said it was much better. People complain about the daftest crap.

One difference I just thought of between Taiwanese bikes and Western bikes is the presentation seems a fair bit better on Western "handbuilt" bikes. Maybe it's just the Taiwanese painters that are lagging behind not the welders...

 

[dunk]

Yeah, good point, but I have to admit the finish on my Intense isn't the best I've seen, lots of orange peel, and it chips easy.

 

[dhd]

OK......since you want me to jump in......well you did about a week ago!
All I was going to do was agree with BB7 and since catching up I'd agree with 2-fast's sentiments.
As a general rule, a high end hand made frame has much more attention to detail.
I've seen some shockers slip through the cracks (from Taiwan) with silly little things that while they won't affect the ride they are flaws. Things like a slightly out of round bottom bracket, seatclamp that squashes the seat tube or stickers put on the wrong sides of the frame. Not biggies and easily fixed but never the less flaws.
Look at a high end frame manufacturer and magically these things dissappear or become very few and far between. It seems to be more about attention to details and amount of care taken in the build.
If you want to see the difference in welds come on over to my place and we'll put a Da Bomb and a KeeWee side by side and have a close look. Both are bloody good frames but the KeeWee is better finished by a long shot. I'd put them one up against any Taiwanese frame and be confident the welds would be finished better.
Keewee......1 ex formula one engineer welding up 10 frames a week.
Taiwan........20 guys welding up 1000 frames a week.

 

[sxereturn]

I've skipped a lot of posts in this thread so it might have been said earlier...


There's pretty much no difference between a top of the line big company's frame (Norco, Specialized, Kona etc) and a small boutique company's frame. They all have similar amounts of R&D go into them.

R&D costs a lot of money. Let's just say $500,000. a big bike company will make 5,000 frames, so they have to sell them for a minimum of $100 each. But a small bike company will only make 500 frames, so they have to sell them for $1000 each.

Get my drift?

 

[MUNGUS]

correct me if i'm wrong but thats how i see it.

You are wrong. Consider yourself corrected. I don't normally bother responding to people who's grasp of the written english language is below that of the average primary school child, but here goes...

If you have anything beyond the 'bikes iz fun n i lyke ridingz tehm' level of interest in the bike industry and actually talk to people who are a part of the it, it'seasy to find out what goes on the Taiwanese factories, it's not like anyone's trying to hide how the bikes are produced.

I'm not here trying to bash Balfa either, I love some of their bikes and would love to own one day, particularly the BB7. I just object to people trying to push the line that 'handmade by Canadians' is for some reason superior to 'handade by Taiwanese'. It's the same trade being performed by people with the same tools, just on 2 different continents.

The Canadians charge a premium for their work, the Taiwanese don't. That's why it's more expensive. If you believe otherwise it's proof that marketing works and nothing else.

so u r trying to tell me that you know exactly wat is going on in those factories and that you can tell everybody else in this thread the procesees involved and the differences between different factories. if you can, good on you, but until i here it and u have something to back it up, i might not trust wat u say. all i was saying is that all the ppl writing in this thread don't know wat goes on in those factories. i don't know who u r and u may know wat happens but one thing i won't believe, is you saying that everyone in this thread knows wat goes on in bike factories and can therefore contradict each other and correct each other.

as for your shit about the english language. i have no fucking idea where u get that from but i don't give a shit either. english and finding out wat happens in a taiwanese bike factory are in no way related but if you think so good on u.

 

[S.]

Keewee......1 ex formula one engineer welding up 10 frames a week.
Taiwan........20 guys welding up 1000 frames a week.

What you're making out there, is that the Taiwanese welders each weld 5 times as many frames as the Keewee guy (Trevor?). What you're neglecting to mention, is that the Taiwanese welders aren't actually designing the bikes, test riding the bikes, dealing with bike shops, dealing with warranties, talking on the phone to customers, drawing up the catalog/website, talking to the team riders, buying/mitring/cutting/treating tubing, machining up bits and pieces, tapping threads, and all the other stuff that Trevor is doing. If you compared the actual time spent on each frame, then that would be a lot more relevant.

As an addendum, I'm in the process of contacting a number of bike companies (both American/Canadian made as well as Taiwan-made) to ask exactly how their bikes are made, and why they choose the process that they do. I'll post the replies up as I get them.