The Handmade vs Handmade argument

[and1]

I must admit, this thread isn't really helping the starter in terms of whether or not he should buy a balfa or not. Sure if where the frame is made is all that matters to you is important then it is valuable.

I don;t think any of you are helping to provide relevant information to how it rides, pros, cons etc...

My 2 cents.

 

[CHEWY]

More importantly, where are you actually getting all your facts from Socket? I hope its from a reputable source and not some forum jock... You seem to know a great deal about frame quality and manufacturing techniques, yet I remember on another forum not so long ago you asking what a heli-coil was...

 

[Ryan]

correct me if i'm wrong but thats how i see it.

You are wrong. Consider yourself corrected. I don't normally bother responding to people who's grasp of the written english language is below that of the average primary school child, but here goes...

If you have anything beyond the 'bikes iz fun n i lyke ridingz tehm' level of interest in the bike industry and actually talk to people who are a part of the it, it'seasy to find out what goes on the Taiwanese factories, it's not like anyone's trying to hide how the bikes are produced.

I'm not here trying to bash Balfa either, I love some of their bikes and would love to own one day, particularly the BB7. I just object to people trying to push the line that 'handmade by Canadians' is for some reason superior to 'handade by Taiwanese'. It's the same trade being performed by people with the same tools, just on 2 different continents.

The Canadians charge a premium for their work, the Taiwanese don't. That's why it's more expensive. If you believe otherwise it's proof that marketing works and nothing else.

 

[and1]

More importantly, where are you actually getting all your facts from Socket? I hope its from a reputable source and not some forum jock... You seem to know a great deal about frame quality and manufacturing techniques, yet I remember on another forum not so long ago you asking what a heli-coil was...

Agreed. Thousands of posts doesn't equate to superior knowledge over anyone else. I would also like to see where all these facts are coming from.

 

[lotec]

BAK ON TOPIC the latest new i have is that ill have mine TOMORROW! so ill tell you how it rides, damn for some reason i feel like i just drank 1000000 cans of redbull, so hyper!

 

[S.]

More importantly, where are you actually getting all your facts from Socket? I hope its from a reputable source and not some forum jock... You seem to know a great deal about frame quality and manufacturing techniques, yet I remember on another forum not so long ago you asking what a heli-coil was...

Mostly from forum "jocks" who would *generally* be considered completely unreputable sources, such as DW, Ska Todd, and a few other bike company employees/designers (eg Pip from Banshee). A fair bit of info is 3rd hand through others on the forum (only from one or two people though, you can guess who they might be) who've either heard stuff from other people they consider reputable, or actually have first hand experience. And as Ryan said, it's really not hard to find out how it's done. Email Rob Crafter or someone (I have, at various times, to ask about certain stuff), it's not like people are trying to keep us all in the dark.

Feel free to disagree with anything I've said if you happen to know otherwise.

 

[bb7 rider]

ryan, seriously you need to visit the different factories to see the process, there is a big difference. how come yeti asx rangs and others are mad in taiwan and there dh9 is still produced in colorado? if there was no quality diff they would all be done in the same factory, then im sure you look at the warranty returns on yeti asx compared to dh9s. and im not singling out yeti, i think they rock! but its one example of the 2 different processes in action mass produced and boutique, marketing will always play a role in this industry but not to disguise numbers over quality control.

 

[Rik]

then im sure you look at the warranty returns on yeti asx compared to dh9s.

That's a useless point, you'd have to compare US made DH9's to Taiwanese made DH9's or you're just wasting time.
And I'd guess that for super-top-end frames, ones that you want alot of design control over, doing short runs in the States would be better than just having a huge batch banged out of Taiwan. I'm assuming this as it'd allow for design tweaks to be made halfway through production runs. I guess that is one of the advantages of running a boutique setup. BUT, if they bike was designed and tested properly to start with, it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[CHEWY]

More importantly, where are you actually getting all your facts from Socket? I hope its from a reputable source and not some forum jock... You seem to know a great deal about frame quality and manufacturing techniques, yet I remember on another forum not so long ago you asking what a heli-coil was...

Feel free to disagree with anything I've said if you happen to know otherwise.

Your wrong!! :wink:
I was actually genuinely interested in where you learn about all this stuff from, and now I know...
Now I'll be quiet becuase I have nail polish remover in my eye and I dont think thats gonna do my eyeball a great lot of good...

 

[Agent Orange]

WELL then,

The idea that bikes made 'overseas' in large factories by a bunch of Taiwanese rice eaters are going to be 'crap' is a fair and logical one. Ever heard the saying 'if you want a job done right you have to do it yourself?' who here goes to paddies markets? anyone buy anything from their that didn't fall apart in 3 days? Obviously the people that have been working on Balfa bikes in the design process and in the construction are going to make them with more accuracy than someone who is thrown a design and a tig welder and said "oh chi cumo sang chi wha" which i think means 'you make bike for bowl of rice'

I know for a fact that certain bike factories in tiawan pay there workers per piece, meaning that the more they make a day the more rice they get at the end of the week. Straight away you have an incentive to rush your work.

In large bike companies they are producing a higher volume of bikes, raising the chances of a ill-constructed frame leaking through whatever system they have to find faults.

Thats all for now.......

 

[bb7 rider]

rik the dh9 aint even made in taiwan mate and there is a reason for that.

 

[Ryan]

Right...splitting this topic to save the poor guy who asked the original question from wading through our argument. It's a good argument though, so lets keep it going

ryan, seriously you need to visit the different factories to see the process, there is a big difference. how come yeti asx rangs and others are mad in taiwan and there dh9 is still produced in colorado? if there was no quality diff they would all be done in the same factory, then im sure you look at the warranty returns on yeti asx compared to dh9s. and im not singling out yeti, i think they rock! but its one example of the 2 different processes in action mass produced and boutique, marketing will always play a role in this industry but not to disguise numbers over quality control.

Heres some wild speculation for you...(do you actually have any of the said warranty return figures?)

DH9's are a high cost, low sales volume frame with a low margin when compared to most of Yeti's range. Once again, I'd say it's a marketing thing, when you want to charge that much for a frame you need to offer the buyer a 'perceived benefit' from other frames they could choose from. The 'Handmade in the USA' label is one such perceived benefit.

Think about this from the other perspective though. If you were Yeti management and you could ship your manufacturing FROM a highly regulated, high cost labor market where you shoulder the majority of the set-up, tooling and infrastructure costs TO a low-cost labor market, where the welders will work for peanuts (comparitively) and your exposure to tooling and set-up is reduced AND the finished product is still of a high enough quality as to be indistinguishable from your made in the USA gear, why wouldn't you?

Or from yet another perspective, you know as well as anyone that the future of the current Balfa setup is somewhat up in the air. If the production of Balfa branded frames (which are for the most part at the 'mature' end of the development process, undergoing refinement rather than re-design each season) was outsourced to a Taiwanese shop, do you honestly believe the quality of finished bikes would decrease?

 

[S.]

More importantly, where are you actually getting all your facts from Socket? I hope its from a reputable source and not some forum jock... You seem to know a great deal about frame quality and manufacturing techniques, yet I remember on another forum not so long ago you asking what a heli-coil was...

Feel free to disagree with anything I've said if you happen to know otherwise.

Your wrong!! :wink:
I was actually genuinely interested in where you learn about all this stuff from, and now I know...
Now I'll be quiet becuase I have nail polish remover in my eye and I dont think thats gonna do my eyeball a great lot of good...

ahahaha, nice work... I will admit, my knowledge with a lot of hands on stuff (like getting my own derailleurs to work :roll is kind of lacking...

 

[Rik]

rik the dh9 aint even made in taiwan mate and there is a reason for that.

Exactly my point....I'll clarify:
You're saying compare 2 different models warranty returns, one made in US, one made in Taiwan.
I say it's wrong, because you'd have to compare the same model made in different locations to give a fair assessment of actual build quality.

It's a bit like me comparing a Commodore to an Astra, they're 2 cars made in 2 different locations. I'd have to compare a Euro-made Astra to an Aussie made Astra to get a fair comparison.

 

[S.]

WELL then,

The idea that bikes made 'overseas' in large factories by a bunch of Taiwanese rice eaters are going to be 'crap' is a fair and logical one. Ever heard the saying 'if you want a job done right you have to do it yourself?' who here goes to paddies markets? anyone buy anything from their that didn't fall apart in 3 days? Obviously the people that have been working on Balfa bikes in the design process and in the construction are going to make them with more accuracy than someone who is thrown a design and a tig welder and said "oh chi cumo sang chi wha" which i think means 'you make bike for bowl of rice'

I know for a fact that certain bike factories in tiawan pay there workers per piece, meaning that the more they make a day the more rice they get at the end of the week. Straight away you have an incentive to rush your work.

In large bike companies they are producing a higher volume of bikes, raising the chances of a ill-constructed frame leaking through whatever system they have to find faults.

Thats all for now.......

Good points, but do you happen to know whether quality control is any less stringent than anywhere else, or if there's any form of pay reduction (ie, penalty) for a welder stuffing up a frame/getting one back on warranty? Because I'd guess that if you're being paid per piece, they'd make sure you were doing it properly too, to ensure that you don't just run some crazy stupid bead down the side of the tube and pass it off as another one done. [/speculation]

 

[Agent Orange]

well I guess that would differ from factory to factory, then again there are a number of bikes made in the same bike factories.

A company can impliment any number of measures to stop faulty merchandise being sold to the public but when it comes down to it the more you produce the higher chance you have of one slipping through the system.

How many times have you had shitty food at mc donalds, you got the wrong thing, or the chips were cold or the burger pattie was really a dead rat? most people would say it is fairly regular that something goes wrong.

Ok go to your upper class style take away cafe where you pay 25 bucks for a burger and chips. if you frequent these establishments you will notice they are not nearly as busy and sell less burgers per day. BUT when you get your meal how many problems does it have? VERY few usually. Mc donalds can use any number off techniques to stop this happening and they do, but in the end they will make more mistakes simply on the basis that they are sending out more food. Baring all the facts of they use cheap labour and staff who cares as much about the food as they do about the person eating it.

This can be applied to any type of company.

 

[bb7 rider]

ok rik i will cut it short for you, go overseas hang out with the yeti directors and business partners go to the factory and then ask them why the dh9 is made in Colorado and the asx in taiwan, i am over this 5th hand info everyone is pulling out. the asx is a mad ride and i seriously like it but build quality is different. you can even see it in the to frames.

 

[Rik]

This can be applied to any type of company.

What happens when McDonalds also do small-run, higher quality food, ala the salads and McCafe?
These factories have the ability to scale their productions for quality and outright output.

I'm just arguing for the sake of it, trying to get a definite answer (I find the best way to get someone to justify their opinion is to argue against it), but it seems that can't be given by ANYONE, so I'm out of this, I give up...
Actually: just to add to why a definate answer can't be given...
Unless we have a boutique Asian, or mass produced Western bike to compare to the boutique Western and mass produced Asian, it's just stupid to compare it all.

 

[S.]

well I guess that would differ from factory to factory, then again there are a number of bikes made in the same bike factories.

A company can impliment any number of measures to stop faulty merchandise being sold to the public but when it comes down to it the more you produce the higher chance you have of one slipping through the system.

How many times have you had shitty food at mc donalds, you got the wrong thing, or the chips were cold or the burger pattie was really a dead rat? most people would say it is fairly regular that something goes wrong.

Ok go to your upper class style take away cafe where you pay 25 bucks for a burger and chips. if you frequent these establishments you will notice they are not nearly as busy and sell less burgers per day. BUT when you get your meal how many problems does it have? VERY few usually. Mc donalds can use any number off techniques to stop this happening and they do, but in the end they will make more mistakes simply on the basis that they are sending out more food. Baring all the facts of they use cheap labour and staff who cares as much about the food as they do about the person eating it.

This can be applied to any type of company.

Hmm, we're all making a big assumption here that because a bike is made in Taiwan, LOTS of them must be made. It's not unreasonable to expect, as Rik said, that factories would be able to scale production from high speed/low quality to low speed/high quality by simply varying the price they charge per frame, or whatever.

 

[Agent Orange]

remember the term mass production?, yeh i think thats wat i was refering to, call me stupid but i thought that was the argument there, mass-produced handmade vs handmade

rik's argument, though interesting, obviously means he didn't read my post.