Trump..... (The Sophistry Thread)

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
I actually think that kind of tweet is emblematic of this shit we find ourselves in and I think it's beneath you.

All it does is polarise positions (regardless of fact) and solidify battle lines. And what did posting it do other than give you cheap satisfaction? I cast that stone realising the horrible record of my own sins this website alone offers.

This article reflects on where battle lines are taking us:


Best take I've seen yet. A clear eyed view of the battle lines we've drawn, the careers that are staked upon battle existing, the desperation of ego and what we are willing to sacrifice for self interest.

This is a great read and reflective of not just the mainstream media but all of us.

With the internet, we are all now the media.




Covington and the Pundit Apocalypse
Our hasty condemnation of these teenagers reveals the cold truth about hot takes.
By Frank Bruni
Opinion Columnist
Jan. 22, 2019
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/22/opinion/covington-teenagers-twitter.html

There’s no shame and much honor in the job of coming to judgments about news events.

But we don’t have to rush there.

That’s what too many of us pundits did upon first seeing video footage and hearing accounts of the encounter in Washington last Friday between teenagers from Covington Catholic High School and a Native American elder and veteran playing a drum. There were glimmers of something cruel and even dangerous happening to him. Glimmers were enough for us.

Now of course we’ve seen extra footage, heard additional accounts and moved to a place that should more frequently be our starting point: uncertainty. Tweets have been deleted. Outrage has been put on hold.

It won’t stay there for long. It’s too electric, too profitable, and there will be prompts and genuine cause for it. But will we pause next time to make sure that we understand what we’re reacting to and whom we’re condemning? Even if that means fewer retweets? Will we filter our responses through a mature acknowledgment of what, in real time, we can and cannot take for granted?

Only if we’re honest about what we’ve been doing and why we’ve been doing it.

With everything from Twitter followers to television bookings, we’re rewarded for fierce conviction, for utter certainty, for emphatically taking sides and staying unconditionally faithful to what we’ve pushed for and against in the past. We each have our brand, and the narrower and more unyielding it is, the more currency it has and the more loyal our consumers. Instead of bucking the political tribalism in America, we ride it.

We react to news by trying to fit it into the argument that we routinely make, the grievance that we usually raise, the fury or angst or sorrow that we typically peddle. We have our narrative, and we’re on the lookout for comments and developments that back it up. The response to the initial footage of the Covington boys — and, in particular, to the one who wore a red MAGA cap as he stood before and stared at the drumming veteran — adhered to this dynamic.

Was that a smirk on the teenager’s face? A sneer? His expression was just indefinite enough to become a symbol of entitlement for the pundits who favor that locution, of the white patriarchy for another group, of the wages of Trumpism, of the fraudulence of Catholicism.

And while many pundits’ outrage was correctly calibrated to what they assumed was going on, it was built on assumption. It was hasty. A crowd was forming and the clock was ticking and nobody wanted to be late to the inquisition. A “hot take” is prized — hence the well-known phrase for this instant analysis. Nobody talks about a “cold take,” though that’s the temperature of truth

To glance at Twitter as the video of the Covington teenagers went viral over the weekend was to see each pundit one-upping the disdain of the pundits who vented before him or her. It was also to wonder about the degree of preening and performance involved. They weren’t merely spreading the word of what had supposedly happened in Washington. They were seizing the opportunity for a fresh and full-throated reminder of their own morality and politics. They were burnishing their brands. And that self-interest was — and is — the enemy of caution.

I’m not going to single out any particular pundits and tweets, because there were many and because, under different circumstances, one of those tweets could easily have come from me. As it happens, I missed this pile-on. But I’m sure that if I scrubbed my Twitter history, I’d find that I’ve behaved in the fashion that I’m lamenting here.

My focus on pundits may seem narrow, but we’re stand-ins for a much larger group of Americans, including politicians, many of whom denounced the Covington kids as prematurely and confidently as pundits did. Also, we’re visible, and our trade is influence. We’re sometimes called “thought leaders,” for heaven’s sake. Do we mean to be leading people toward overconfidence in their ingrained perspectives and a disposition to see all of life through one narrow lens? Should we be modeling snap assessments and press-a-button derision? The teenagers have received death threats.

The rest of the media didn’t behave all that differently from how we did, and to some degree probably followed our example. Newspaper and television stories bought into preliminary versions of what happened in Washington, which encouraged readers and viewers to do the same. And we all abetted our detractors’ efforts to delegitimize us. Witness the way President Trump framed the initial condemnations of the Covington kids as “fake news.” We let him keep banging his drum.

Some of the condemners counter that their essential point remains, that entitlement, cruelty and racism persist and even thrive in today’s America. That’s for sure. But when the evidence cited for that turns out to be inconclusive or wrong, their position is weakened. Their goal isn’t served.

Some conservatives are gleeful about how this went down. But isn’t their vengeful joy its own rushed celebration, its own self-serving simplification of a complex sequence of events? We’ve realized the error of the first draft, but we’ll probably never produce a final, indisputable one. I wish more of us had the humility to concede that.
 

moorey

call me Mia
Could you please keep it to 280 char?

Cheap thrill. Unashamedly. It’s an outlet, and it makes me feel better. I believe that’s the reason that most do.

I’m not responding to a valid communication with abuse, I’m responding to policy by twitter with an equally stupid reply.

I have no plans to stop.
 

born-again-biker

Is looking for a 16" bar
I can't believe how uncanny your timing is Johnny.
Your excellent post pretty much nailed a whole bunch of thoughts that were rolling around in my head tonight.

I am surrounded by feverish Trump supporters at work.
It can make my 7 day-a-week/4 week swing longer and more difficult than it already is.
They trumpet his victories and denounce any and all of his detractors with little self-awareness of their baseless bias. And they don't even live in the USA.

I try quite hard to appreciate their point of view.
If I know anything, it's that nothing is black and white (well, I'm learning as I age)
I try not to be a righteous leftie.
I try to remove opinion and rely on statistical facts....
But the converted army give you no credit for trying to meet them in the middle. They give no ground, because they're right and everyone else is wrong.

Sent from my LG-H870DS using Tapatalk
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
I’m responding to policy by twitter with an equally stupid reply.
\
Cool, I guess it's ok as long as you realise that your response was as equally unhelpful as the original troll's.


A drop in the ocean is still part of the ocean.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
But the converted army give you no credit for trying to meet them in the middle. They give no ground, because they're right and everyone else is wrong.
Ideology does not allow compromise. Until we understand the meaning of existence. ideology will remain a fatal goose chase.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
"the ultimate solution is always death"

My wife just said that to me as we discuss Duterte, Trump, Xi, Putin, Maduro, Edogan, etc.













If I don't see y'all tomorrow, it's been fun......
 

SummitFever

Eats Squid
I have liked both Johnny's and Moorey's posts.

What makes me sad in the present political climate is that issues are dumbed down into binary positions (right or wrong) that end up polarising the electorate. Every important issue is complicated and cannot be reduced to a simple right and wrong answer.

If I could magically change one thing it would be a recognition in the voting public that every issue is not black and white. Everything is complicated and has multiple inputs and outputs in the decision making process. One size does not fit all. Anything less is an afront to intelligent decision making.
 

John U

MTB Precision
There is more than one side to every story. The ability to negotiate should be seen as a strength but is generally painted as giving in.
 

moorey

call me Mia
There is more than one side to every story. The ability to negotiate should be seen as a strength but is generally painted as giving in.
Trump never negotiates. Only threatens and bullies....then cheats people. It’s been his MO his whole life. There’s an excellent comedy/history podcast called The Dollop that did one on him a couple of years ago. Highly recommended listen.
https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast...eth-reynolds/id643055307?mt=2&i=1000394768321

https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast...eth-reynolds/id643055307?mt=2&i=1000394768320
 

John U

MTB Precision
Trump never negotiates. Only threatens and bullies....then cheats people. It’s been his MO his whole life. There’s an excellent comedy/history podcast called The Dollop that did one on him a couple of years ago. Highly recommended listen.
https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast...eth-reynolds/id643055307?mt=2&i=1000394768321

https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast...eth-reynolds/id643055307?mt=2&i=1000394768320
My post was in reply to Summit Fevers last paragraph, not in support of Trump.
 

hifiandmtb

Sphincter beanie
Finally - some good (brilliant in fact) news coming out of U.S. politics:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...-debate/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.9878a790834a

...it’s a statement of intent, explaining the justification and goals of a massive infrastructure program to transition to a sustainable future. This is at once incredibly ambitious and politically practical, in that its advocates seem to have in their minds a long-term plan to get it accomplished.

...

You can see why this would make Republicans nervous, beyond the fact that they don’t particularly care about climate change and don’t like government to do much of anything affirmative. They have managed to shape the debate on government spending in an extraordinary way, in that the things they want to spend money on, like tax breaks for the wealthy or wars or enormous military budgets, are almost never questioned in the same way.

When Republicans say "We need to spend three-quarters of a trillion dollars on the military next year," reporters don't pepper them with questions about how it'll be paid for. It's just accepted that it's worthwhile, and therefore deficit spending is an appropriate way to finance whatever taxes don't cover.

Ocasio-Cortez and others are making the same argument about green infrastructure, as well as things such as expanding health coverage: It’s worthwhile, and if deficit spending is what’s required to pay for it, that’s fine.
Truly visionary thinking - we have no choice though. Do this or doom the planet.
 
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