eBikes - what's the current perspective

[Dark Knight]

Well this topic has certainly elicited significant response - that can't be a bad thing. With regards to 'sales pitchy' - I can assure you that's not my objective. This is in no way 'spam' - making money selling any types of bikes is a tough gig and I make good enough cash in my day job to stress with that sort of business - upmost respect to those that do. I indicated early what my bike is, mentioned a few others...some of which aren't even available in oz - I would hardly think that's sales - but people will think what they will. If you're in any way interested, I'm sure you'll DYOR.

I first discovered rotorburn as I was (and still am) looking for some DH bike parts - specifically a cane creek double barrel coil shock 10.5 x 3.5 and there was one for sale here (also on the hunt for Fox 40 forks and shimano saint anchors amongst other parts) however I couldn't post to the trading area until making 5 constructive posts (a fair restriction I guess). Rather than aimlessly posting against others threads, thought I'd kick my own off...with a topic I knew at least a little about. It also seemed a subject little discussed, hence my thoughts to initiate.

This opening statement says to me "I came here to pick a fight, and I'm surprised no one has fought back". Not the most positive way to approach it.

Klips - this was far from my opening statement - please go to the beginning of the thread to see all of the dialogue. Having said that, if that's how it read I can only apologise as that was not my intent. I really was interested to see what a generic perspective was. The expectation of negativity/flaming was based around experience with my own friends that have and do bike trails and turn there noses up (as I used to)...so it seemed reasonable that complete strangers would have similar views.

I sincerely hoped that by initiating a discussion around this some mutual understanding may begin to form. The fact is that the legal 250w assist ebikes are considered bikes and have free access to anywhere a bike can go - whether this is a popular fact or not is moot in the eyes of the law. Having said that, no one likes to go where they're not welcome hence my (perhaps misguided) attempt at a reasoned discussion. I would like to able access various trails without someone threatening to see if my bikes floats for instance...

It is also important to note that there is a clear delineation between assist ebikes and high powered ebikes (stealth bomber and the like - has been posted on rotor before) as has been indicated by both myself and other posters here. It's my personal opinion that they both have a place in our future with high powered ebikes hopefully becoming popular on moto trails/tracks. I personally believe they offer significant advantages over gasses being silent and somewhat more environmentally friendly...but that's a separate topic.

It's interesting that there is actually quite a mix of views - and some even, if not in total support, at least not completely against. With regards to making trails, well I was out digging and shovelling more than 25 years ago making trails that may well still exist...or likely have been expanded upon. If I was to start regularly trailing again, pretty sure I'd have a shovel in hand when the time comes.

Moving on, all I ask is that everyone keep it reasonably civil. We may not agree with each other on everything in life, and cases like this are a clear example. You can think what you like, but it's simple politeness to keep everything non-personal. It would be easy and comfortable to stick to ebike forums where everyone agrees with me, however that is an exercise in preaching to the converted (and would also be the appropriate place for a sales pitch BTW) and would have no hope of engendering change. I appreciate I've come to your turf but have kept it polite and civil and would like the courtesy returned.

If you don't have anything constructive to say, the topic offends you or you think it's a sales pitch, feel free to change the channel...otherwise, let the conversation continue...

 

[aanon]

These things seem disliked by heaps of mtb riders it seems.
If it has 2 wheels I will give it a go, I reckon some of the e bikes available would be awesome fun, especially if there was a few of you together.
I don't think I will ever buy one as I enjoy the pedal up these days but they do look fun.
I suppose the purists have already decided that they will take over the trails and ruin mtb for everyone but that is a different debate and hard to predict at this current point in time.

 

[crank1979]

I'd prefer not to see motorised or assisted bikes on trails simply because of the past confusion between mtbs and motorbikes. If there are people who can't tell the difference between an mtb or motorbike when access issues are discussed you can be sure the inclusion of these bikes on trails won't help the mtb cause.

I see it as the thin end of the wedge. The power limit doesn't matter. People will latch onto the fact it has a motor and will again lump mtbs with motos.

 

[cramhobart]

I have no problem with pedal assisted bikes like the Lapierre Overvolt or the haibike range.
Some Pro's put out more watts that these bikes do.

With the exception of a couple of retiring elite rowers- no one jumps on a mtb and starts knocking out that kind of power- it's takes lots of time to achieve that sort of fitness, during which you develope bike handling skills. On single track with limited sight lines, combining elite level power output with entry level bike handling skills, the potential for harm to come to others, bothers me.

 

[wombat]

With the exception of a couple of retiring elite rowers- no one jumps on a mtb and starts knocking out that kind of power- it's takes lots of time to achieve that sort of fitness, during which you develope bike handling skills. On single track with limited sight lines, combining elite level power output with entry level bike handling skills, the potential for harm to come to others, bothers me.

I don't know that I buy that. I've ridden with some very powerful roadies who were starting on MTBs and were very much beginners in off road skills. None of them blasted around with abandon, mostly because the rougher terrain is intimidating at first. People hold back and ride at a speed that suits their skill and confidence, you don't have to ride flat out all the time just because you can.

 

[pistonbroke]

eBikes to mtb is what scooters are to skating.
It's for people who can't or won't put in the hard yards to get somewhere.
In saying that, with today's need it now generation, I think they will be popular.
In 30 years will we look back on the good old days when life was simple and you had to pedal?
I think it's a joke. If you want a motor, buy a motorbike. But don't tell me you are mtb'ing on an eBike.

 

[Ivan]

I think they're going to be popular. I may not own one, but i am sure plenty of others will. Steve Jones from Dirt magazine has a point.

 

[pistonbroke]

When I don't feel like pedaling, I ride this.

 

[Duane]

Me personally, I'd love a high powered electric bike to ride some of the moto areas without upsetting others with the noise.
As far as the low powered pedal assist bikes, well I don't have a disability sticker for my car, so I don't feel I need the extra aid for disabled riding yet either, but there may come a time and it's good to have these options for less abled people, like mobility scooters and walking frames.

 

[pharmaboy]

Seems like a downhill solution to me - downhillers always getting shuttles to the top of the hill because they are too unfit to ride to the top!

Or is it like a golf cart instead of walking?

 

[John U]

I think they're going to be popular. I may not own one, but i am sure plenty of others will. Steve Jones from Dirt magazine has a point.

View attachment 289649

If I was ever to purchase one of these the purpose of the motor would be to help get back up the hill when a shuttle wasn't available or the chairlifts weren't running. For this type of riding I spend the majority of the time coasting when I'm going down. I get enough speed for me without pedalling. Heading back up to the top of the Delatite River trail on the road on something like this would be a much more pleasant experience and allow you to get a lot more runs in (as in the quote above). Wouldn't think these would serve any great enhancement to general trail riding.

Take note that the Nicolai frame I posted the link to weighs in at 13.5 kg without any parts.

 

[natskis]

I welcome the new pedal assisted ebikes into the mtb world.
If it reduces the barrier of entry into the sport then good.

If it means more people on trails then it also means more people advocating for more and better trails.

If it means that more mates can come along on rides because they don't need to fear a 30k slog out at the Oaks because they'll be assisted by an electric motor then that's awesome.
It also means not worrying about having to wait 5-10 mins for those walking up hills cause they can't make it.

You generally don't hurt yourself going up a hill, you hurt yourself going down a hill.
The assisted pedaling is not going to cause more problems there.
And the flip side is that if you're not as fatigued, you're probably not going to make as many stupid mistakes going down hills either.
Another positive is that you're going to be able to ride further and enjoy the ride more.

 

[WarbyD]

ok, so in the context of pedal assist being used to assist downhill riders in getting up the hill without a shuttle it could be of benefit.. But how many of the people with the finances to afford spending several thousand dollars on their first MTB are going to be looking at it from this angle? Do you think the 45yo accountant who hasn't ridden at all in the past 15-20 years is going to be looking at redbull rampage for his inspiration? I doubt it personally.

I would imagine the majority of people treating an eBike as an entry into the sport will be looking towards XC type riding and trails, where I personally do not believe it is appropriate. IMO these bikes in this context will allow people to ride beyond their ability to deal with corners, obstacles, etc. You need to learn to walk before you run, and I don't see this as being any different - When you start in the sport you gain fitness and speed ALONG WITH technique and ability.

 

[WarbyD]

The fact is that the legal 250w assist ebikes are considered bikes and have free access to anywhere a bike can go - whether this is a popular fact or not is moot in the eyes of the law. Having said that, no one likes to go where they're not welcome hence my (perhaps misguided) attempt at a reasoned discussion. I would like to able access various trails without someone threatening to see if my bikes floats for instance...

It is also important to note that there is a clear delineation between assist ebikes and high powered ebikes (stealth bomber and the like - has been posted on rotor before) as has been indicated by both myself and other posters here. It's my personal opinion that they both have a place in our future with high powered ebikes hopefully becoming popular on moto trails/tracks. I personally believe they offer significant advantages over gasses being silent and somewhat more environmentally friendly...but that's a separate topic.

This I think is an area that you need to be quite careful. You're right, at the moment these eBikes are viewed the same as bicycles in the eyes of the law. If you (I use the term collectively here, not specifically yourself Dark Knight) start pushing the boundaries though then this may force the hand of law makers to reconsider that position.

If people hang their hat on the argument that "it has free access to anywhere a bike can go" then the easiest option for regulators is to say "Well, you know what.. this thing isn't just a bike. It's more than a bike, it's not safe to mix it with regular bicycles and pedestrians, nor is it safe to use on the road. I don't know what the answer is, so from now on you can only use it in specific designated places" -- Similar, I think (haven't looked into it), to what has happened with Segways and the like here? If I understand correctly I believe that Segways are essentially illegal to use anywhere other than private property.. I wouldn't like to see eBikes end up the same.

 

[Dark Knight]

Give me a pedal only bike worth the same coin as an e-bike and I'll show you a vastly better bike every time. I know what I'd rather ride; even though I'm fat and lazy.

No argmument there - dollar for dollar you will have far better components (forks, brakes, rear shocks etc. etc.) on a pedal only bike than an ebike as you're not burying cash into the drive system, controller, battery etc. You also pay a not insignificant weight penalty for the e components - something in the 8-10kg range would be reasonable. As to what one would rather ride, that's down to the personal preference.

I'd prefer not to see motorised or assisted bikes on trails simply because of the past confusion between mtbs and motorbikes. If there are people who can't tell the difference between an mtb or motorbike when access issues are discussed you can be sure the inclusion of these bikes on trails won't help the mtb cause.

I see it as the thin end of the wedge. The power limit doesn't matter. People will latch onto the fact it has a motor and will again lump mtbs with motos.

This is a very valid point which needs to be carefully managed. Being at (I believe) somewhat of the forefront of trying to get mountain bike acceptance over a couple of decades ago, I am sensitive to this. Solution...not sure, but perhaps for once the legislative environment has solved that for us...?

When I don't feel like pedaling, I ride this.

Understood. There are electric replacements for dirt bikes as well, some with pegs (even some real cheap stuff coming out of china), some that are still partially bikes (i.e. they still have pedals). You can build these up from frames and I've seen some on you tube that do 0-50 in 2 seconds, can hit 100+kmh, have a 60-150k range (depends on terrain and speed obviously), weigh around 50kgs (easier to lift), can take it on the train discreetly, are silent and you can still pedal home/back to the ute if you run out of juice.

The disadvantages - huge unsprung weight in the rear wheel (to get those speeds you're sticking a 10kg hub motor in the rear wheel) which is a biggie and also range limitation - you may get 60-150ks but once you're out of juice, you're a couple of hours from another ride, not simply a pour from the jerry can. These aren't eMTBs though...

Seems like a downhill solution to me - downhillers always getting shuttles to the top of the hill because they are too unfit to ride to the top!

Or is it like a golf cart instead of walking?

Yep - they're used a lot for this in europe by all accounts. Either to save the chair lift fee or to access trails that the lifts don't go to...or simply so you can get more runs in.

I welcome the new pedal assisted ebikes into the mtb world.
If it reduces the barrier of entry into the sport then good.

If it means more people on trails then it also means more people advocating for more and better trails.

If it means that more mates can come along on rides because they don't need to fear a 30k slog out at the Oaks because they'll be assisted by an electric motor then that's awesome.
It also means not worrying about having to wait 5-10 mins for those walking up hills cause they can't make it.

You generally don't hurt yourself going up a hill, you hurt yourself going down a hill.
The assisted pedaling is not going to cause more problems there.
And the flip side is that if you're not as fatigued, you're probably not going to make as many stupid mistakes going down hills either.
Another positive is that you're going to be able to ride further and enjoy the ride more.

Agree with all of that - but then it's supporting my point of view so I'm likely to aren't I :bounce:

This I think is an area that you need to be quite careful. You're right, at the moment these eBikes are viewed the same as bicycles in the eyes of the law. If you (I use the term collectively here, not specifically yourself Dark Knight) start pushing the boundaries though then this may force the hand of law makers to reconsider that position.

If people hang their hat on the argument that "it has free access to anywhere a bike can go" then the easiest option for regulators is to say "Well, you know what.. this thing isn't just a bike. It's more than a bike, it's not safe to mix it with regular bicycles and pedestrians, nor is it safe to use on the road. I don't know what the answer is, so from now on you can only use it in specific designated places" -- Similar, I think (haven't looked into it), to what has happened with Segways and the like here? If I understand correctly I believe that Segways are essentially illegal to use anywhere other than private property.. I wouldn't like to see eBikes end up the same.

That's a valid point. It's funny, because in the ebike world many rail at the 250W limitation...the US (although actually state by state) has far more liberal regulations with up to 1kw (1.33hp) being accepted. I hadn't really stopped to think how the lower restriction may actually aid in there eventual acceptance. Bear in mind the current restriction has three main facets - no more than 250W continous assistance can be supplied, all assistance scales back when the speed hits 25kph and the assistance can only be driven from pedal cadence/pedal pressure. Given those three restrictions, I don't see them as remotely a danger...however again that's my opinion.


Good to see some reasoned discussion around the topic though. My synopsis so far of the 'general perspective', there are the purists that say if it aint all human input, it don't belong...fair enough (although I don't agree for the reasons stated). Amongst 'the others' there appears to be a split on trails and downhilling. For trails...hmmmm....not so sure - particularly when there are counterloops/2 way systems as the potential for a higher speed collision does increase (e assisted would improve uphill speed). Downhilling - mostly yes. Get's the 'crappy' slog out of the way a little easier and allows for more downhill fun.

Thanks to all for the contributions. It's always a pleasure to have a nice debate, and to get some good and valid point of views which potentially can and should change my own perspective.

 

[freddofrog]

Coming from a slightly different perspective, I'm surprised there aren't a lot more people commuting on them. Given the cost of parking in the city it would soon pay for itself.

 

[thecat]

You're right, at the moment these eBikes are viewed the same as bicycles in the eyes of the law..

They are considered bicycles by the RTA for riding on road. I doubt anyone would have a problem with that but that's not what we are discussing and it's not to say all gov departments/land managers do or will accept them as such.

 

[Hyena]

Well, I can't NOT weigh in on this one.
Grab your pitchforks guys, I'm the bad guy :beguiled:

I own a few ebikes, a somewhat low powered commuter with slick tyres, a higher powered hardtail and a very high powered purpose built full suspension DH style electric bike. I also own a dirt bike, a road (motor) bike and a 300kw XR6 turbo (so as to give an idea as to what sort of bloke I am). Guess which one gets used the most ?
Unless it's bucketing down or I'm dropping the kids at school I ride the commuter 35km return daily. When my family life allows it, on the weekend I'll ride my higher powered offroad bikes. I prefer my ebikes to all else, and I know a number of ebike riders feel the same way (some who incidently also have largely neglected motorbikes and high-ish powered cars in their garages) I also know a number of people who've sold their cars, dirtbikes, and even totally unrelated bikes like Harleys in favour of a zippy ebike.

Firstly, a disclaimer and some background. I'm obviously a big ebike advocate. I've been riding them for years and I've been building them for others for about 5 years. It started out when I rode one of the first ebikes I saw at my local bike shop. It was gutless, heavy, and aside from the $3000 price tag it was otherwise a $100 kmart bike! These things were like 30kg and topped out at 25km/hr. Sure I could roll along at that speed on the dead flat without pedalling but anyone can pedal faster than that, and anything above that speed I was lugging around all that extra weight, and the handling was terrible. So I did some research, disappeared to my workshop and after several revisions emerged with something much better. Almost daily people would stop me in the street or on the trails and ask me what I was riding and where they could get one. I told them I made and modified it myself and that you couldn't buy them. Many would often remark "you should totally start selling them, I'd buy one. Seriously, if I give you some money will you make me one?" And so I did. I dont do it as a business, it's just a hobby and I enjoy getting more people into ebike riding. If you want to call anything above or below a sales pitch then it's not my intention, I'm just being transparent and giving my point of view.


So while ebikes used to be pretty shit, in recent years ebike and battery tech has gotten better and the turn key ebike Dark Knight has is actually a pretty slick ebike. Anything ~200w shop bought though isn't this big bad machine of death and destruction that so many people seem to think they are. Unless you weight 50kg, are leaning over the handlebars, riding on wet grass you're not going to break traction. Infact most of these street legal ebikes run skinnier, less knobby tyres than most serious mountain bikes so probably have less environmental impact! They're also limited to 25km/hr so really so it's not like they're tearing around out of control. Sure they'll pull you up a hill a bit better than the next guy but it's not like you're sitting back, you're still working for it.
So it's laughable when the pitchfork brigade that go straight to "they're motorbikes, they shouldn't be on my trails, they're ruining our tracks, etc "
That sort of mentality is pretty much akin to the sort of response a black man would have gotten 100 years ago when he walked into a white mans bar and was so presumptuous as to think he could drink there.
Bike shop owners are among the worst offenders, though many have gotten better in recent years.
A few years back I took my offroad ebike (a specialized fsr with a conversion kit) to the LBS to get hte front brakes bled. He took one look at it and said "what's all this ?" "it's electric" I replied. "Nah sorry we don't work on electric here" "No I won't want anything else done, I just want the brakes bled, they're standard avid juicys like half a dozen other bikes here in your shop" "nah sorry mate, they're just too different to what we're used to working on" "But they're just standard bicycle hydraulic brakes!" "Nah, I'm just not interested"
Obviously this guy was a wanker but it's typical of the whole "you don't belong here" mentality

 

[ming]

I wonder how the motors and controllers cope with riding on downhill or rough XC trails. Maintenance could get even more expensive than it is now...

Friends with road bikes have found eBikes to be great for riding with family - it means that husband and wife can ride together and both enjoy the experience. This would be applicable for epic MTB rides also.

 

[Hyena]

Regen braking on ebikes actually acts like ABS in cars so is more environmentally friendly than traditional brakes. They can't actually lock and when they start to sense a loss of traction they ease off the braking. Obviously you've still got mechanical brakes which you can lock up at will bit I frequently use rear regen alone to hold me back on long descents and supplement with a bit of front brakes as required.

Even the much higher powered bikes don't ruin your trails. Sure you can make them spin the wheels if you're deliberately trying, the same as you can in most cars, but they don't automatically cause death and destruction and any misuse is strictly to do with the attitude of the rider. The same person who skids through corners and berms is going to wreck things regardless of what they're riding, and again it's an issue with them being a noob / d!ck. Likewise with speed and other riding behaviour in general. P platers in cars (fast or otherwise) have a higher incidence of hooning around, plowing into other cars, running over kids, clubbing baby harp seals etc - you don't go banning all cars from the road because some people lack judgement. It's been my experience that ebike riders are actually often safer and more courteous on the road and trials than than the lycra types who are busting their arse and don't slow down enough when passing others for fear of losing momentum or in the case of roadies it might interfere with their target heart rate or perfect cadence...
I've (appropriately) slowed down on shared paths when approaching pedestrians and kids on scooters etc only to have lycras overtake me and proceed to weave through everyone like it's a time trial. It's just stupid and dangerous and gives all bike riders a bad name.

I will often pull over on the trails when I hear riders coming up behind me shifting through their gears.I can easily pick up my speed again so it's no biggy for me to let them by when I'm just out for a casual ride. Most will say thanks as they go by and not even realise my bike is electric until we get to the next big hill and I catch and overtake them. It's usually at this point they'll exclaim "that's cheating!" to which my standard reply is "I didn't know we were racing!" I often stop at the top and will have a chat and the vast majority of people are actually pretty cool about it and interested in the tech. I've got mates that race downhill XC that also own ebikes and what some people don't seem to realise is that just because you've got the power there to use doesn't mean you have to. People often say "yeah but what happens when you run out of power ?" It's a bicycle, you pedal it home!
These ARE bicycles and unlike motorbikes (or those petrol bike kits which I agree should be banned) when you don't touch the throttle or engage the pedal assist you're just riding around on a regular bike. The tracks I leave in the mud are exactly like the other mountain bikes and no where near the sort of damage caused by motos. Likewise a heavy ebike might weight 40kg, not 100kg++

So they're not doing any damage, they're not making any noise, they're not stinking the place up, if you're not riding dangerously (which is rider not bike dependent) what's the actual problem ? You hate on ebike riders because they're not busting their arse as hard as you to earn the riding experience and scenery ? Don't hate Tony Stark because he can put the iron man suit on when he wants to and you can't eace: