willsy01
Eats Squid
I know! Because it's so enjoyable watching other people involved with the sport you also love struggle isn't it???!!!!
NSW Unsanctioned Trail Work in the RNP
- Thread starter JBR
- Start date
DeBloot
Feeling old
We all want the same result, but the devil is in the detail
Firstly I want to make the point that it is illegal to build a trail in NP, but not to ride it (unless signposted otherwise)
So saying the trails are 'illegal', I believe is incorrect - unauthorised is a less offensive and more correct term
So it seems obvious from this thread that the builders of the unauthorised work know what they are doing and are sick of trudging through mud while they wait for the NP to tick it off their to do list
There are obviously good builders willing to put in the time, but want to do it outside of the organised build days - and this is not only the case in the shire
It is also obvious that the demand for MTB trails greatly outweighs the somewhat lacklustre efforts of some councils and NP to provide areas in which to do it
Because demand is so out of kilter with supply, unauthorised trails are the only way to achieve some sort of equilibrium (at a local level)
I see the slowness in progress of many trails due mainly to council, NP or other officials having to be present at every single build day to 'oversee'
I believe that the NP and councils are working off outdated walking trail 'guidelines' where generally old people with no knowledge turn up on a few weekends a year to help maintain a walking trail
Major work is done by contractors or specialised staff, or alternatively left to erode
But with MTB, funding is minimal in all but the most progressive councils, so the vast majority of work is left to riders and can only be done when some sort of official is present
With the huge workload, it can never be completed as it needs to be
Surely in the group of people that turn up, some can continue and complete work between these organised days
If some attempt had been made previously to remedy the situation, then those that sought to fix it would use their skill to finish off or improve the incomplete work
Or a worst case, would not have cut a diversion where the NP don't want one as they would have seen that the problem is being dealt with
But instead, they were almost forced to remedy the situation
And, as a result, the NP can now say how bad we all are and how we may lose our access
And we all argue amongst each other as to how bad some of us are and not acting in the best interests of the sport causing a loss of access
Like Johnny Rotten said, 'ever get the feeling you're being cheated?'
We are dying of thirst and given a thimble full of water by someone with a gallon to spare
I'm sorry - are we expected to be grateful for that?
Sure, NP can erect signs and use their minimal budget to enforce it
Sure, we can remove the signs and ride anyway
But wouldn't it be more prudent for them to think outside the square
When I went to a meeting a few years back to discuss MTB in NP's, they were struggling with declining popularity of parks particularly amongst younger people
They are running the risk of becoming increasingly irrelevant and need to get with the times for all our sakes
Parks need to be there for the enjoyment and education of all, not to be put on a pedestal and admired from a book
Firstly I want to make the point that it is illegal to build a trail in NP, but not to ride it (unless signposted otherwise)
So saying the trails are 'illegal', I believe is incorrect - unauthorised is a less offensive and more correct term
So it seems obvious from this thread that the builders of the unauthorised work know what they are doing and are sick of trudging through mud while they wait for the NP to tick it off their to do list
There are obviously good builders willing to put in the time, but want to do it outside of the organised build days - and this is not only the case in the shire
It is also obvious that the demand for MTB trails greatly outweighs the somewhat lacklustre efforts of some councils and NP to provide areas in which to do it
Because demand is so out of kilter with supply, unauthorised trails are the only way to achieve some sort of equilibrium (at a local level)
I see the slowness in progress of many trails due mainly to council, NP or other officials having to be present at every single build day to 'oversee'
I believe that the NP and councils are working off outdated walking trail 'guidelines' where generally old people with no knowledge turn up on a few weekends a year to help maintain a walking trail
Major work is done by contractors or specialised staff, or alternatively left to erode
But with MTB, funding is minimal in all but the most progressive councils, so the vast majority of work is left to riders and can only be done when some sort of official is present
With the huge workload, it can never be completed as it needs to be
Surely in the group of people that turn up, some can continue and complete work between these organised days
If some attempt had been made previously to remedy the situation, then those that sought to fix it would use their skill to finish off or improve the incomplete work
Or a worst case, would not have cut a diversion where the NP don't want one as they would have seen that the problem is being dealt with
But instead, they were almost forced to remedy the situation
And, as a result, the NP can now say how bad we all are and how we may lose our access
And we all argue amongst each other as to how bad some of us are and not acting in the best interests of the sport causing a loss of access
Like Johnny Rotten said, 'ever get the feeling you're being cheated?'
We are dying of thirst and given a thimble full of water by someone with a gallon to spare
I'm sorry - are we expected to be grateful for that?
Sure, NP can erect signs and use their minimal budget to enforce it
Sure, we can remove the signs and ride anyway
But wouldn't it be more prudent for them to think outside the square
When I went to a meeting a few years back to discuss MTB in NP's, they were struggling with declining popularity of parks particularly amongst younger people
They are running the risk of becoming increasingly irrelevant and need to get with the times for all our sakes
Parks need to be there for the enjoyment and education of all, not to be put on a pedestal and admired from a book
willsy01
Eats Squid
My understanding is that council and NPWS act independantly of each other. That is, National Parks are not on council land. Happy to be corrected though.
Based on what i've seen of Sutherland Shire Council and their involvement with Menai, they are tripping over themselves to assist. Things like them suggesting hiring a chopper to drop building material at more remote locations and the ranger mentioning that he'd been told to spend more money are fairly indicative of their interest in the project. Sure, it took a lot of people a lot of time to get it all over the line.....but now that all the due diligence is completed, it's full steam ahead.
NPWS is a different story. That Nasho is the seond oldest national park in the world so you have to understand why they're reluctant to criss cross it with trails.
Based on what i've seen of Sutherland Shire Council and their involvement with Menai, they are tripping over themselves to assist. Things like them suggesting hiring a chopper to drop building material at more remote locations and the ranger mentioning that he'd been told to spend more money are fairly indicative of their interest in the project. Sure, it took a lot of people a lot of time to get it all over the line.....but now that all the due diligence is completed, it's full steam ahead.
NPWS is a different story. That Nasho is the seond oldest national park in the world so you have to understand why they're reluctant to criss cross it with trails.
DeBloot
Feeling old
They definitely act independently of each other and I can see the difficult situation they (NP's) are in
My rant was more of a generality about NP and councils (who both are guilty of heads in the sand) than one or the other or a specific area
It's frustrating (for all) when the need for places to ride is well overdue :frusty:
But we seem to accept the blame when someone goes beyond the confines of what we are told is acceptable
And I had to have a little rant about that to feel better :mmph:
My rant was more of a generality about NP and councils (who both are guilty of heads in the sand) than one or the other or a specific area
It's frustrating (for all) when the need for places to ride is well overdue :frusty:
But we seem to accept the blame when someone goes beyond the confines of what we are told is acceptable
And I had to have a little rant about that to feel better :mmph:
bigdamo
Likes Dirt
The councils in Northern Tasmania seem to have a handle on it.
http://www.northerntasmania.org.au/client-assets/Latest%20Reports/Potential%20for%20Mountain%20Biking%20in%20North%20Eastern%20Tasmania%20-%20March%202013.pdf
http://www.northerntasmania.org.au/client-assets/Latest%20Reports/Potential%20for%20Mountain%20Biking%20in%20North%20Eastern%20Tasmania%20-%20March%202013.pdf
bigdamo
Likes Dirt
Exactly for good reason.
dcrofty
Eats Squid
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/parkmanagement/form_RoyalHeathcoteGarrawarra.htm
Have your say in how Royal NP is managed, what activities are permitted etc etc for the next 5 years.
For instance should the trial of allowing MTB's to ride on singletrack in Royal National Park be concluded and the activity permitted under the POM?
Have your say in how Royal NP is managed, what activities are permitted etc etc for the next 5 years.
For instance should the trial of allowing MTB's to ride on singletrack in Royal National Park be concluded and the activity permitted under the POM?
markb84
Likes Dirt
Most I've ever seen was about 8. Usually more like 3-4. Last one there were 2. I'm with you mate, a hell of a lot could be achieved, even with the monthly model, with 20 people.
thecat
NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
Nope, Under the cycling policy that came into effect in 2011 it's the other way around. A track is only legal to ride if it is approved under the parks Plan of Management and signposted as allowed.
Where track is defined as: ‘Track’ means a walking track or other access way which is not open to motorised
vehicles (other than motorised wheelchairs and other mobility devices).
While the policy does state that
There is no onus on Park management to sign post every track that is not legal to ride.
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/parks/20110648policyCycling.pdf
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shore_2
Likes Dirt
The reason illegal trail building happens in RNP is because practically no legal building does. It's the same few trails year in year out. Hardly entertaining.
All this crap about volunteering gives me the S#*ts too. Why do we have to build our own facilities? When was the last time you saw the local football club re-turfing or moving there own grounds? I pay rates to live in the shire. Where's the facilities for my sport? Couple of crappy little singles in RNP where i risk having my teeth knocked out in a head on. Big deal.
I've been riding MTB and moto's all my life and getting the arse end because they aren't main stream sports so get shafted. There starts to come a point where you get a little sick of waiting for all the red tape and stupid irrelevant studies making a mountain out of a mole hill. It's a MTB ffs!
The only rule i follow these days is don't ride my moto on mtb trails and ride my MTB where ever it fits.
Sick of all the nanny state MTB riders that are around now too.
Rant over.
All this crap about volunteering gives me the S#*ts too. Why do we have to build our own facilities? When was the last time you saw the local football club re-turfing or moving there own grounds? I pay rates to live in the shire. Where's the facilities for my sport? Couple of crappy little singles in RNP where i risk having my teeth knocked out in a head on. Big deal.
I've been riding MTB and moto's all my life and getting the arse end because they aren't main stream sports so get shafted. There starts to come a point where you get a little sick of waiting for all the red tape and stupid irrelevant studies making a mountain out of a mole hill. It's a MTB ffs!
The only rule i follow these days is don't ride my moto on mtb trails and ride my MTB where ever it fits.
Sick of all the nanny state MTB riders that are around now too.
Rant over.
Wildchild426
Likes Bikes
This is a good point. It would be good to see bigger volunteer turnouts. However, I think that the reason hardly anyone turns up to maintenance days is because they are tired of doing the maintenance on just 1 trail: the Loftus loop (Saville's Creek track), especially seeing as there is not much else we are allowed to do to modify it. We MTBers really only have that 1 track to ourselves in the RNP, and I would estimate the MTB community has become rather disenchanted with it. I am not speaking personally, this is just speculation.
Now, it is quite likely that those who built this unsanctioned new diversion on the Creek Trail (Holey Trail, whatever you want to call it) knew what they were doing was illegal. Yet they did it anyway. Does anyone writing here really think these people responsible for the work are going to stop doing such maintenance jobs just because 20 people in cyberspace don't approve of it? Really, they could be doing a lot worse than they are. They are not acting with malicious intent. They are not ripping up the forest and laying down whole new trails. They are building high, dry and sustainable diversions to bypass increasingly damaged mud zones, trying to make this track a better riding experience for all who use it. Perhaps they have failed in some peoples eyes. Yet they are trying, and at the very least, I can appreciate the effort. We all wish RNP would do such maintenance work themselves, but at the moment they are not. And really, this trail is not even officially an 'authorised' MTB trail anyway. To those who claim they should have more right and more say about this trails layout because they have been riding it longer; really, they have just been breaking the law the longest, for this trail is not an authorised MTB track. You admit to using this trail illegally, then condemn others for a similar act. Thats called hypocrisy. I myself love riding this trail. Who am I to point fingers at who does what. If the RNP want to take action, they will. I just hate the idea of any RNP reps reading a forum like this and seeing how divided the MTB community is on such topics. I would much prefer them to read a forum full of positive, like-minded comments about the improving condition of trails, how much we MTBers love the 'unauthorised' trails, and how we would love to be part of a regular maintenance team that worked on not just 1 small section of trail, but a much larger network.
If the people doing this unsanctioned trail building are actually reading this, I caution them to be careful not to overdo things. I appreciate your zeal, but please keep your repairs and maintenance simple. To everyone else, I simply say love your local trails and be a positive voice for them.
DeBloot
Feeling old
rotorub
Likes Dirt
I have replied to this post and monitor to the RNP trail work/maintenance thread. In the hope that I can make it.
However nearly every time the build days are on I am working. And on the rare occasion that I am off on the weekend and the build days are on I have had other things that have required my time family, wife, house rennos etc.
I generally have more free time during the week when rostered off. Hovever RNP dont hold Maintenance days during the week. I am not sure if it would feasible to hold a RNP maintenance day during the week? How many other shift workers off during the week would be interested?
Those that do the legal work have my full support. Those that dont do the legal work you really should be consulting RNP to get your work approved and sanctioned to build a better trail for all!
thecat
NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
Wildchild426
Likes Bikes
I'm in the same boat. Saturday mornings don't work for me generally. I would like to see a maintenance day scheduled through weekdays, or even on Sunday. Perhaps the build days in a month could rotate days of the week. You might get different people turning up for maintenance, but I'm certain more would end up coming. Weekday mornings suit me best.
Ridenparadise
Likes Bikes and Dirt
The age old issue of volunteer support. We have endless enquiries about joining our work parties whenever they aren't posted and no help when they are! We all have commitments - full-time work for me, a family and after hours work issues. I still average 10 hours a week on the tools. I just ride a lot less. If you want to help, then you have to just do it guys. To be honest, the active volunteers get pretty tired of hearing everyone's excuses, especially as they ride by week after week.
As to working in national parks, that is what we do here. After years of standoff, we now have a very cooperative agreement with the local rangers and it has gone to the top of Parks and Wildlife in Qld. Regardless of everyone's desire to see quality, well maintained trails, the simple fact is that working in national parks is not the same as working elsewhere. We would like to make all sorts of changes to the old trails. Some we are allowed and others not. Parks, rightly or wrongly have accepted the existing trails as the benchmark for footprint and are very reluctant to allow us to make wholesale changes. We do what we are allowed and believe that over time the developing trust will expand to allow bigger changes on the trails.
We have quite a lot of people signed onto the trailcare agreement. Most are inactive. Some are very active building shit new trail all over the place and offer not one bit of help to authorised trailcare days. Just how long parks allow that to occur before they bring the axe down on the entire project is anyone's guess. It certainly does not help us get done what they want without causing them more issues. Most disappointing is seeing new trail in fantastic places, made badly and knowing that in the future we will either be asked to close it or if lucky, asked to make it viable. It pisses me off that we have to mop up the mess made be others whose intentions are not consistent with our agreement.
Like it or not, there is no easy way to get what you want in a national park. Not helping on authorised build days and complaining they don't suit you may be a lesser crime than doing stuff you shouldn't have done in the first place, but in the end it is also unhelpful. The only way to make progress is to make time and do the right thing. If more of you "it's not convenient" types manned-up to the job at hand, so would the pirate builders because everyone would see more progress and that breeds enthusiasm.
As to working in national parks, that is what we do here. After years of standoff, we now have a very cooperative agreement with the local rangers and it has gone to the top of Parks and Wildlife in Qld. Regardless of everyone's desire to see quality, well maintained trails, the simple fact is that working in national parks is not the same as working elsewhere. We would like to make all sorts of changes to the old trails. Some we are allowed and others not. Parks, rightly or wrongly have accepted the existing trails as the benchmark for footprint and are very reluctant to allow us to make wholesale changes. We do what we are allowed and believe that over time the developing trust will expand to allow bigger changes on the trails.
We have quite a lot of people signed onto the trailcare agreement. Most are inactive. Some are very active building shit new trail all over the place and offer not one bit of help to authorised trailcare days. Just how long parks allow that to occur before they bring the axe down on the entire project is anyone's guess. It certainly does not help us get done what they want without causing them more issues. Most disappointing is seeing new trail in fantastic places, made badly and knowing that in the future we will either be asked to close it or if lucky, asked to make it viable. It pisses me off that we have to mop up the mess made be others whose intentions are not consistent with our agreement.
Like it or not, there is no easy way to get what you want in a national park. Not helping on authorised build days and complaining they don't suit you may be a lesser crime than doing stuff you shouldn't have done in the first place, but in the end it is also unhelpful. The only way to make progress is to make time and do the right thing. If more of you "it's not convenient" types manned-up to the job at hand, so would the pirate builders because everyone would see more progress and that breeds enthusiasm.