NSW Unsanctioned Trail Work in the RNP

[Slowman]

Just to confirm (because I get the feeling people are confused), the diversion on the NORTHERN side of the creek is all sanctioned.

Yes there are NPWS logoed signs actually warning of the diversion.

This is a good point. It would be good to see bigger volunteer turnouts. However, I think that the reason hardly anyone turns up to maintenance days is because they are tired of doing the maintenance on just 1 trail: the Loftus loop (Saville's Creek track), especially seeing as there is not much else we are allowed to do to modify it. We MTBers really only have that 1 track to ourselves in the RNP, and I would estimate the MTB community has become rather disenchanted with it. I am not speaking personally, this is just speculation.

Now, it is quite likely that those who built this unsanctioned new diversion on the Creek Trail (Holey Trail, whatever you want to call it) knew what they were doing was illegal. Yet they did it anyway. Does anyone writing here really think these people responsible for the work are going to stop doing such maintenance jobs just because 20 people in cyberspace don't approve of it? Really, they could be doing a lot worse than they are. They are not acting with malicious intent. They are not ripping up the forest and laying down whole new trails. They are building high, dry and sustainable diversions to bypass increasingly damaged mud zones, trying to make this track a better riding experience for all who use it. Perhaps they have failed in some peoples eyes. Yet they are trying, and at the very least, I can appreciate the effort. We all wish RNP would do such maintenance work themselves, but at the moment they are not. And really, this trail is not even officially an 'authorised' MTB trail anyway. To those who claim they should have more right and more say about this trails layout because they have been riding it longer; really, they have just been breaking the law the longest, for this trail is not an authorised MTB track. You admit to using this trail illegally, then condemn others for a similar act. Thats called hypocrisy. I myself love riding this trail. Who am I to point fingers at who does what. If the RNP want to take action, they will. I just hate the idea of any RNP reps reading a forum like this and seeing how divided the MTB community is on such topics. I would much prefer them to read a forum full of positive, like-minded comments about the improving condition of trails, how much we MTBers love the 'unauthorised' trails, and how we would love to be part of a regular maintenance team that worked on not just 1 small section of trail, but a much larger network.

If the people doing this unsanctioned trail building are actually reading this, I caution them to be careful not to overdo things. I appreciate your zeal, but please keep your repairs and maintenance simple. To everyone else, I simply say love your local trails and be a positive voice for them.

Nobody is arguing that these guys don't have good intentions...or that the quality of the work is bad, or even that it's not the sensible thing, it's just that it is illegal. Most land managers consider their land, similar to the way you or I would consider our own private property, we decide who does what on it, no one else. There are some good reasons beyond simple dominion, since there is a small possibility, that the land owner/manager will be liable for hazards. If you were going to allow access, and then further, allow modifications, you'd want to be sure that your risks and liabilities were kept manageable and that necessarily entails consideration all changes before giving any approvals.

It's a nice idea that we as mountain bikers could all sit around the camp fire singing Koombaya in a repose of unity and all say we think some minor illegal trail building is good and you should let us to NPWS but I don't think it will work. Allow me to go back to my own personal property analogy again. It would be like if a bunch of the neighbors got together and were all in agreement that I should let them use my driveway as a basketball court. I have to say I'm afraid their unity wouldn't sway me in the least. That is assuming they came and asked me first. To be completely equivalent I come home and find them just playing already. In that position what would your reaction be?

You need to hear your own argument coming back at you from the opposite direction.

I take Steve's point about presenting unity when in a negotiation but first you have to unite behind the right strategy if you are going to succeed. As politics shows us divided squabbling parties don't do well at the polls but success requires more than just unity.

I will tell you right now NPWS do not monitor these forums to get a gauge on MTB unity (as if this place is truly representative anyway).

 

[rotorub]

I'm in the same boat. Saturday mornings don't work for me generally. I would like to see a maintenance day scheduled through weekdays, or even on Sunday. Perhaps the build days in a month could rotate days of the week. You might get different people turning up for maintenance, but I'm certain more would end up coming. Weekday mornings suit me best.

The age old issue of volunteer support. We have endless enquiries about joining our work parties whenever they aren't posted and no help when they are! We all have commitments - full-time work for me, a family and after hours work issues. I still average 10 hours a week on the tools. I just ride a lot less. If you want to help, then you have to just do it guys. To be honest, the active volunteers get pretty tired of hearing everyone's excuses, especially as they ride by week after week.

Like it or not, there is no easy way to get what you want in a national park. Not helping on authorised build days and complaining they don't suit you may be a lesser crime than doing stuff you shouldn't have done in the first place, but in the end it is also unhelpful. The only way to make progress is to make time and do the right thing. If more of you "it's not convenient" types manned-up to the job at hand, so would the pirate builders because everyone would see more progress and that breeds enthusiasm.

Appreciate your comments. However myself and wildchild have offered a real alternative outside the square Idea to provide assistance in addition to the build days on offer. Criticizing us for doing so does not encourage me to come and help it does the exact opposite. If anything more eyes on the trail at any given time mid week and weekends would potentially stop illegal work.

doing stuff you shouldn't have done in the first place, I am not sure what you are trying to infer or assert here?

My response is I dont ride this trail very often despite being close by
because of time and also I am at the point I dont know what is legal and what is not.
I also feel that the trail is being damaged far beyond what the works can do to repair it.

I am opting out of this thread you have just lost a previously keen potential volunteer!

 

[Wildchild426]

Yes there are NPWS logoed signs actually warning of the diversion.


Nobody is arguing that these guys don't have good intentions...or that the quality of the work is bad, or even that it's not the sensible thing, it's just that it is illegal. Most land managers consider their land, similar to the way you or I would consider our own private property, we decide who does what on it, no one else. There are some good reasons beyond simple dominion, since there is a small possibility, that the land owner/manager will be liable for hazards. If you were going to allow access, and then further, allow modifications, you'd want to be sure that your risks and liabilities were kept manageable and that necessarily entails consideration all changes before giving any approvals.

It's a nice idea that we as mountain bikers could all sit around the camp fire singing Koombaya in a repose of unity and all say we think some minor illegal trail building is good and you should let us to NPWS but I don't think it will work. Allow me to go back to my own personal property analogy again. It would be like if a bunch of the neighbors got together and were all in agreement that I should let them use my driveway as a basketball court. I have to say I'm afraid their unity wouldn't sway me in the least. That is assuming they came and asked me first. To be completely equivalent I come home and find them just playing already. In that position what would your reaction be?

You need to hear your own argument coming back at you from the opposite direction.

I take Steve's point about presenting unity when in a negotiation but first you have to unite behind the right strategy if you are going to succeed. As politics shows us divided squabbling parties don't do well at the polls but success requires more than just unity.

I will tell you right now NPWS do not monitor these forums to get a gauge on MTB unity (as if this place is truly representative anyway).

Still, unity helps. And NPAWS do moniter these threads. Perhaps not with the sole intent on assessing our unity as a MTBing community, but they notice the division and that is enough. Maybe its just me, but dobbing in and condemning other riders/builders on a forum just doesn't seem constructive.

I understand what you're saying and agree with you. To get the approval to ride/modify these trails (or have any hope of), most certainly we should try to go through the correct channels. We should be united in THAT cause. I was merely suggesting that perhaps we should not divide up in condemnation of others work. I think it would have been far better to not mention it at all.

 

[Slowman]

...I think it would have been far better to not mention it at all.

and that is why I suggested earlier this thread be deleted!

BTW, stop frigging with my pedantic sensibilities, the accepted abbreviation for National Parks and Wildlife Service is NPWS.

 

[Ridenparadise]

Appreciate your comments. However myself and wildchild have offered a real alternative outside the square Idea to provide assistance in addition to the build days on offer. Criticizing us for doing so does not encourage me to come and help it does the exact opposite. If anything more eyes on the trail at any given time mid week and weekends would potentially stop illegal work.

doing stuff you shouldn't have done in the first place, I am not sure what you are trying to infer or assert here?

My response is I dont ride this trail very often despite being close by
because of time and also I am at the point I dont know what is legal and what is not.
I also feel that the trail is being damaged far beyond what the works can do to repair it.

I am opting out of this thread you have just lost a previously keen potential volunteer!

Mate, have a closer read - I am in Qld and telling you what QPWS think about "illegal" work in national parks everywhere. By telling me I have lost a valuable volunteer in the RNP you are wasting your time. You do indicate that you are only interested in yourself however, so I would have to doubt the value of you as a volunteer inside or outside the square. We have heard it all before.

 

[bigdamo]

I'm in the same boat. Saturday mornings don't work for me generally. I would like to see a maintenance day scheduled through weekdays, or even on Sunday. Perhaps the build days in a month could rotate days of the week. You might get different people turning up for maintenance, but I'm certain more would end up coming. Weekday mornings suit me best.

Hey WildmememeChild how come the Menai MTb park work days are on a Saturday morning.By the way the National park rangers and staff give up there time to work on Saturdays and I know they had better things to do with there time how do I know because I volunteered and worked the first year it was on.

 

[crank1979]

Appreciate your comments. However myself and wildchild have offered a real alternative outside the square Idea to provide assistance in addition to the build days on offer. Criticizing us for doing so does not encourage me to come and help it does the exact opposite. If anything more eyes on the trail at any given time mid week and weekends would potentially stop illegal work.

doing stuff you shouldn't have done in the first place, I am not sure what you are trying to infer or assert here?

My response is I dont ride this trail very often despite being close by
because of time and also I am at the point I dont know what is legal and what is not.
I also feel that the trail is being damaged far beyond what the works can do to repair it.

I am opting out of this thread you have just lost a previously keen potential volunteer!

My understanding, and I'm happy to be corrected, is that NPWS will not allow unsupervised work to be done in the RNP. There must be a ranger present. It has been put to NPWS RNP representatives before that weekday trail maintenance sessions could be run but they haven't offered any weekday maintenance days that I'm aware of. The 3rd Saturday of every month maintenance days have been running for a number of years though, so I'm sure most potential volunteers could have attended at least one or two in that time if they were at all serious about helping out.

I can understand the frustration in the posts by Ridenparadise. There are a lot more 'gunnas' out there then there are 'doers' and they all tend to be pretty vocal.

 

[dcrofty]

My understanding, and I'm happy to be corrected, is that NPWS will not allow unsupervised work to be done in the RNP. There must be a ranger present.

Grant, Bev and myself have gone out on weekdays unsupervised. The NPWS staff were happy that we are authorised and experienced volunteers who know what we are doing and can be trusted. Perhaps its different cause I'm staff but it has happened. However as a general principal yes they like their staff to be present, but thats not just MTB, its the bush regen and other volunteer activities.

Otherwise if people want to do volunteer work at a different time then they need to contact the park management and ask. If enough people do that there is a chance, no one does it it won't happen.

Also people who want to work outside the normal hours then post here and we'll see what happens, I may be able to take people out during the week if there is enough interest.

And lastly the local NPWS staff already know about this recent work, not because of this thread but because they are outdoor people and mountain bike and walk in the park in their spare time so you might as well keep talking about it. But talking about it here isn't as effective as commenting either to the POM review or just writing a letter to park management and saying what you would like to see in the park. It does get listened to.

 

[Halo1]

and that is why I suggested earlier this thread be deleted!

Not until the next build day as we will need to do a roll call of all the people on this thread that turn up.... everyone is turning up right!!:grouphug:

I think it is good to see both sides of the argument. I would also be keen for some mid week build days. Lucky for me I can usually make it on a Saturday.

 

[Ridenparadise]

Grant, Bev and myself have gone out on weekdays unsupervised. The NPWS staff were happy that we are authorised and experienced volunteers who know what we are doing and can be trusted. Perhaps its different cause I'm staff but it has happened. However as a general principal yes they like their staff to be present, but thats not just MTB, its the bush regen and other volunteer activities.

Otherwise if people want to do volunteer work at a different time then they need to contact the park management and ask. If enough people do that there is a chance, no one does it it won't happen.

Also people who want to work outside the normal hours then post here and we'll see what happens, I may be able to take people out during the week if there is enough interest.

And lastly the local NPWS staff already know about this recent work, not because of this thread but because they are outdoor people and mountain bike and walk in the park in their spare time so you might as well keep talking about it. But talking about it here isn't as effective as commenting either to the POM review or just writing a letter to park management and saying what you would like to see in the park. It does get listened to.

Yes, this is how it works. Trust has to be built and then you can start to work toward freedom.

If you are interested please PM me because we have established a system of online assessment. It's pretty simple. We have a trail audit Qld Parks & Wildlife arranged. It has a series of way points, photos and recommendations, along with trail ratings and other comments using IMBA standards. We do whatever is needed at each of the way points and post it up on http://www.mtbtrailcare.com We agree with QPWS that that audit was lenient and more could be done to make the trails really good. They like that and allow us some latitude, plus allow us to post trail re-route suggestions online. If they are minor issues, then they may also agree to them online. On-site inspection is something we all feel is important and it happens when required.

Rangers have limited time to carry out multiple duties. They don't want time wasted checking and supervising little jobs and we don't want to wait for them before starting little jobs. It's a win on both sides. It allows work any day of the week and on multiple sites at any one time (help allowing).

 

[Wildchild426]

Hey WildmememeChild how come the Menai MTb park work days are on a Saturday morning.By the way the National park rangers and staff give up there time to work on Saturdays and I know they had better things to do with there time how do I know because I volunteered and worked the first year it was on.

Because, Biglamo, I don't organise them. I wish I did. And just like the rangers I do give up my free time Saturdays to attend. As I suggested earlier, perhaps an alternating maintenance schedule would be good for RNP so people with Saturday morning committments could go other days. I have suggested same with Menai outside this thread.

 

[willsy01]

We regularly get 20 people out at Menai.......you'd be lucky to get half that on a weekday. Although I would be happily proven wrong!

 

[Wildchild426]

Also people who want to work outside the normal hours then post here and we'll see what happens, I may be able to take people out during the week if there is enough interest.

Thanks mate. Just visited the forum and voiced my interest. Cheers.

 

[Doddsy]

Laminated pieces of paper fix anything...

 

[Snit]

Illegal Trails

Unfortunately, RNP is a pretty boring mountain bike trail and although I don't condone illegal trail building, I can see why the local kids would want more variety and more trails. Unless they agree to some more trails, the illegal stuff will continue to be a problem.

RNP user since "Who Gives a Sh*t"

RNP Rider since "Who Gives a Sh*t"

 

[dcrofty]

Midweek trail maintenance in Royal tomorrow.

Linky.

 

[Cronar]

It's all over!

Bit of a sad day, but it was never going to end well with this trail. Big thanks for the guys who did the re-route, you're definitely a big factor in it being closed.

 

[nikmcc]

It's all over!

Bit of a sad day, but it was never going to end well with this trail. Big thanks for the guys who did the re-route, you're definitely a big factor in it being closed.

Yeah I saw this the other day. It really is a shame.

I hope this serves as a lesson to people. The NPWS don't accept new trails and signage being built in their backyard.

There's a big difference between maintaining sneaky trails and building big extra lines and erecting signage.

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[JBR]

That and the 6000 odd people who continued to ride it in the wet.

And yeah Maybe if the effort in creating the re-route had gone into armouring and drainage on key areas then the result would of been different.

It's all over!

Bit of a sad day, but it was never going to end well with this trail. Big thanks for the guys who did the re-route, you're definitely a big factor in it being closed.

 

[nikmcc]

That and the 6000 odd people who continued to ride it in the wet...

This is also very true

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