NSW Unsanctioned Trail Work in the RNP
- Thread starter JBR
- Start date
justcruzin
Cannon Fodder
Over the weekend, I too had a close look at the trails referred to, walking with a group as well as riding. We had a close look at all the well placed rocks over the wet areas; the re-routed sections; as well as the closed off sections of deep mud.
I have been enjoying these trails since the early 1980’s, initially as a walking/running trail and more recently as a cycling trail with friends and family. The 2 km of singletrack runs parallel to the creek, between two steep valleys, crossing the creek in one spot. As a result, water drainage has always been a problem, even days after rain. (We have experienced one rainy afternoon/evening during the last 2 weeks). Many sections of this trail have changed over the years. There has been simple rocks placed by walkers/runners to help negotiate wet sections and the creek crossing; overgrowth of plants trimmed regularly; fallen braches cleared from the trail; and of course more recently, diversions and new sections of trail being created to avoid the deep muddy sections which drain very poorly, these muddy sections are difficult and unenjoyable to ride and impossible to walk, without getting your shoes covered in mud or slipping over. All these examples of trail maintenance I have witnessed, seem have been done to make the trail easier, safer and more enjoyable to negotiate.
Over the weekend, the re-routed sections allowed us to pass around the wet and muddy sections with ease. Travelling downstream, we quickly reached two more sections which were difficult and unenjoyable to pass. We were hoping to find the same type of re-routed trail, taking us away from the mud.
I do not understand why cyclists would prefer to ride sections of the trail which are struggling to dry, while there are dryer, more enjoyable alternatives. These wet sections are just getting deeper and harder to pass. We welcome the efforts of the people who are making the trails easier, safer and more enjoyable to experience.
RNP user since 1982.
Wildchild426
Likes Bikes
I find myself disheartened by this post. I will try to remain civil and constructive in my reply. I apologise in advance if my tone becomes angry or derisive, for that is certainly not my intent. It is my aim to keep this positive.
Cronar, I too have been riding RNP since 1992 (give or take a year). In those days I rode a hardtail, and my skill and style were very different. Now, I ride 2 bikes and both in vastly different fashions - sometimes I cruise, and sometimes I ride aggressively. My technique has evolved over time and as technology has advanced bike construction, it allowed me to challenge more technical trails and develop my skill in ways I could not 20 years ago. Such is it is for thousands of riders out there.
Times are changing people. If we are to move forward as a mountain biking community, we have to change our mindsets. This trail in question - which goes by many names such as Creek Trail or Holy Trail - was never going to remain a hidden jewel forever. How could it. MTBing is one of the fastest growing sports in Sydney, with bike stores reporting record numbers of MTBs sold in recent years. Compared to 20 years ago, there are literally thousands more riders about. And they are all looking for good places to ride. Fire trails just don't cut it for most riders. With bikes as advanced as they are now, riders are seeking out all singletracks that offer new challenges and terrain. With Menai temporarily closed for riding (while they construct the new MTB park out there), the growing multitudes of riders that live in this region have but 1 place to ride: RNP.
I understand your nostalgia for this creek trail. But the reality is there are so many more riders about now, and they are going to find trails to ride - trails that offer more technicality than a flat, buff firetrail. Trails like this creek trail were always going to achieve fame. The question is now how do we adapt? Browbeating people for riding the creek trail in the rain is not the solution. Nor is complaining about dubious trail maintenance. The trackwork I am seeing out there are efforts from people who are obviously dedicated and concerned riders to bridge mud holes and create more sustainable diversions around the worse parts. Perhaps it is illegal work, and not always perfectly executed, but at least they are starting to consider how to improve this trail, and how to armour it against ongoing erosion. Does this make the trail a bit harder to ride? Perhaps. Does it make some sections slower to rider? Perhaps. Yet I feel that if it is speed and smoothness of trail people are after, there are plenty of fire trails about. It is my thinking that we should not be condemning these people. Rather, we should be trying to figure out ways how to channel their enthusiasm.
What the MTB community really need now is a greater trail network available to us rather than just the firetrails and the solitary Loftus Creek loop. Moreso, we need a more active mainenance schedule with more volunteers willing to participate. This, I believe, is the goal we MTBers should be working towards. Yes this trail will keep gettin ridden. Yes it will continue to erode without some tender loving care. Hopefully one day soon RNP will arrive at a positive decision regarding MTBer access on this wonderful trail, allowing us not only to ride it (legally) but also to commit regular maintenance days to see to its longevity. Then hopefully these well-meaning individuals will continue their work under the correct direction and supervision.
Incidentally, I also rode that creek trail today. I must admit I love it, save for the exceptionally muddy 50 metres to start with. Every climb and descent has me thinking and using my bike to its maximum potential. For me, that beats straight lines and mud.
Cronar
Likes Dirt
Sorry, i should have been clearer, it's not the style of the re-route that i have problems with and i'm all for modifying trails to deal with problem areas. It's the fact that someone has been cutting new trails and moving HUGE amounts of bushrock within a NATIONAL PARK! This places the whole area in jeopardy! We've already seen Lucas Heights shut down because a small group of people took it too far.
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What the authoritative bodies seem to neglect to realise is that the number of mtbers is growing and if the trails cant legally cope with the influx of new rider, illegal trails will pop up.
Sure they can try and shut a place down... Just means that the people will ride it illegally instead. We are such an over governed body in Australia yet we have the largest amount of land per capita and yet retards get upset with people are using this vast land?
It is better than the land being developed for housing etc.
Hell, if everyone started riding the illegal trails what could they do to stop you. Strength in numbers, so why accept such mundane things.
Rant over.
Sure they can try and shut a place down... Just means that the people will ride it illegally instead. We are such an over governed body in Australia yet we have the largest amount of land per capita and yet retards get upset with people are using this vast land?
It is better than the land being developed for housing etc.
Hell, if everyone started riding the illegal trails what could they do to stop you. Strength in numbers, so why accept such mundane things.
Rant over.
If riders collectively started building and riding illegal trails everywhere... Worst case scenario you would likely see riders banned from National Parks, and any riders caught would be slapped with huge fines. MTB riding would be pushed to an even smaller area.
Do it right. Write to you local members of parliament and council to demand more MTB trails and access. Quote IMBA sustainable trails, the obesity epidemic, the return on investment for mountain biking, proven examples of postive outcomes for MTB and community... Yes, writing letters and engaging the Govt and community is boring and slow, but it is more likely to yield positive long term results.
bigdamo
Likes Dirt
Hey Mr what the authorities in this case National parks realize that mtbers are growing in numbers and huge numbers at that and a small minority are causing conflicts. National parks do not have huge budgets when problems occur they look at how to minimize the problems and the cheapest way out and guess what is the cheapest way out of this conflict.
I spoke to a ranger last week were i live now and luckily I don't live in the " shire" any more and live interstate we have two MTB riding areas in town and quite a considerable number of MTBers all and I mean all do the right thing all respect the trails and areas we ride no one and I mean no one cuts in illegal trails and the MTB trails here are a bit tame but we respect what we have. I was talking to the ranger and was comparing the Natio's Mtbing to here and I told her what was going on up there she said "they'll loose it" plain and simple.Don't have time nor money to put up with whats going on.
Why is it Southern Sydney MTBers have a total me me attitude.Stuff you jack I'm all right
MRZ32 National parks were put in place to protect the environment.User of parks come a distance second.
Can they kick you and everyone else out and keep you out hell yeah.They can do what they did to the illegal moto's at Menai. fine you and confiscate your bike and you go up to Sutherland police station with identification to pick up your bike. That's to make sure the phoney ID you give them when asked in the national park matches up.
I said before and I'll say it again do the wrong thing in the Royal and not only will MTBers be banned there you will get us banned Australia wide.
Royal National park user since 1975
Royal National park Mtber since 1989.
Im with Nick.
Im all for all different types of riding and I love technical climbing, but this track was fun for its fast descent, and well, now its not.
In the world of trail ettiquette - taking an established trail, that you didnt build, and pointing it straight up a hill and changing its whole character, is uncool in my book.
We are missing the point here though, and irrespective of how we feel for the diversion, good or bad, it shouldnt have happened at all or been done in the manner that it was, and should be removed.
What Cronar has said is on the money.
Im all for all different types of riding and I love technical climbing, but this track was fun for its fast descent, and well, now its not.
In the world of trail ettiquette - taking an established trail, that you didnt build, and pointing it straight up a hill and changing its whole character, is uncool in my book.
We are missing the point here though, and irrespective of how we feel for the diversion, good or bad, it shouldnt have happened at all or been done in the manner that it was, and should be removed.
What Cronar has said is on the money.
justcruzin
Cannon Fodder
It is very obvious, some of the cyclists are only concerned about the type of trail that has been created within only one of the re-routed sections and how it suits their riding style (nikmcc). The above quote shows no environmental responsibility for the poor quality of the wet and muddy sections of trail, which need time to dry out and recover; nor the effect these wet and muddy sections have on walkers trying to enjoy the trail. Suggesting a poll to decide on the topic and including a preferred vote is shameful.
The points to consider are the fact that if the wet, muddy sections of trails continue to be used, they will not recover, making those sections more difficult, more dangerous, less enjoyable and harder to regenerate in the future. The attitude that nikmcc shows is what will lead to trail closures. That would be extremely disappointing for walkers and cyclists. I hope not many cyclists share this attitude.
Using re-routed sections (either new sections around the damaged ones, or negotiating the rocks which have been placed over mud puddles) is easier, safer, less damaging to bikes and shoes and far less detrimental to those wet, muddy flat sections which are in need of drying.
Wildchild426
Likes Bikes
Here's an idea. If you don't like the new 150 metre diversion, don't ride it! The old length of trail is still there. Play in the mud if its what you want, no sarcasm intended. I will ride both lines myself, depending on weather and mud. If there are a few branches in the road, just move them. Don't just write here and whinge that its now illegally blocked. The people that placed any blockages there may try to put them back I guess, but just they will get the idea once you keep clearing the path.
Illegal trail work is always going to happen in RNP, unfortunate but true. Writing about it on forums will NEVER stop it, and likely won't even reach most of those who did it. The only thing it achieves is to make the minority reading it angry and divided. If everyone posting here was interested in meeting up on this trail on a particular day and time, I would be happy to turn up and ride it with you. We could assess the trail, point out problem areas and discuss it as a group. That would be far more constructive than what is taking place right now.
This comment is thematic of something I unfortunately see time and again. You have it all wrong. True, the Menai/Lucas heights trails were shut down, but it was for a string of reasons, not just illegal trail work. Ansto were voicing liability concerns and security risks to their complex. There were motos in there, and a number of other argumments. In any case, guess what. There is now a full on MTB complex under construction there! I am involved in the project team building it. Why does everybody keep forgetting to include that in their rants? The same community that was thrown out of those Menai trails fought to claim it back and won. The govt has agreed to fund the project, complete with signage and carpark.
So enough with the doom and gloom guys. Instead of freaking out about this illegal track work and worrying over what is our fate in the RNP, perhaps we should try approaching our local NPAWS office or the local govt and voicing our interest in greater trail access within the RNP. There is a significant body of people already doing this. Join them.
Illegal trail work is always going to happen in RNP, unfortunate but true. Writing about it on forums will NEVER stop it, and likely won't even reach most of those who did it. The only thing it achieves is to make the minority reading it angry and divided. If everyone posting here was interested in meeting up on this trail on a particular day and time, I would be happy to turn up and ride it with you. We could assess the trail, point out problem areas and discuss it as a group. That would be far more constructive than what is taking place right now.
This comment is thematic of something I unfortunately see time and again. You have it all wrong. True, the Menai/Lucas heights trails were shut down, but it was for a string of reasons, not just illegal trail work. Ansto were voicing liability concerns and security risks to their complex. There were motos in there, and a number of other argumments. In any case, guess what. There is now a full on MTB complex under construction there! I am involved in the project team building it. Why does everybody keep forgetting to include that in their rants? The same community that was thrown out of those Menai trails fought to claim it back and won. The govt has agreed to fund the project, complete with signage and carpark.
So enough with the doom and gloom guys. Instead of freaking out about this illegal track work and worrying over what is our fate in the RNP, perhaps we should try approaching our local NPAWS office or the local govt and voicing our interest in greater trail access within the RNP. There is a significant body of people already doing this. Join them.
bigdamo
Likes Dirt
So when is this " full on MTB complex actually going to open ? From what I've heard from the new Liberal Sutherland council it ain't high on their priorities.But when it does open and masses of MTbers descend and some start cutting in new (illegal trails) and it looks like you may lose your full on MTB complex due to a selfless few don't come on here with your doom and gloom.
Why would you let them take/confiscate your bike? They are not police, they cannot take it off you unless you hand it over. If they try to use force against you to take it you hot then with assault charges or you just make sure they don't take it off you.
You have a lot more legal rights than you give yourself credit for. Same with vehicles too, to many people just accept what a police officer tells them when in fact they are trying to weasle you out of your right to be innocent until proven guilty.
You have a lot more legal rights than you give yourself credit for. Same with vehicles too, to many people just accept what a police officer tells them when in fact they are trying to weasle you out of your right to be innocent until proven guilty.
bigdamo
Likes Dirt
It won't be rangers taking it. It will be the police probably the Mtb police based just up the road at Sutherland.Yeah you got it covered not. You might want to go and find out what happened to the motos who had there motos confiscated while riding on aboriginal land at Menai. They can also confiscate your bike riding illegally in the water catchment area plus a $10000.00 fine
bikesarefun
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Neither approach is right in isolation.
The answer, in my opinion, to to devote a similar amount of quality time to trail building and to advocacy. It means you're unlikely to jeopardize your personal efforts with one by working on the other. Advocates tend not to see the issues through trailbuilder eyes. Trailbuilders tends not to see the issues through advocate eyes. So it's good to learn how to be both.
As for RNP, good luck.....
Wildchild426
Likes Bikes
Bigdamo, I've unfortunately encountered your ignorance on a previous forum on this very topic. Once again, you demonstrate how little you know on the subject. I will respond for the benefit of other readers on this forum.
The Mill Creek MTB Park (aka Menai MTB Park) is the most positive MTB movement the Sutherland Shire has ever seen. It may be a slow work in progress, but it is an assured one, with the full support of the local govt and NPAWS. After the local elections late last year, there were some new appointments amongst the councillors. Yet new or re-elected, all 13 councillors were in favour of the Mill Creek MTB park when it was reviewed again after the election. The proposal was unopposed. Construction began last year, and I have been involved at most those trail build days. The council is already invested in this project, so there is no turning back for them. Council reps are present at each build day, as well as renown MTB trail advocates to oversee the construction. There is good progress already, but it is a little slow - slow because of the fact there is only one build day per month and volunteers are the main workforce there, of which there are usually 15-20 per day. There is discussion of adding more days than 1 per month to speed up the construction, but volunteers to do the building are what the time frames really hinge upon. Hopefully the number of volunteers swells in the coming months. Concreted pieces are scheduled to be helicoptered into various sections in the near future, and money has been reserved for that. At the moment, it is looking like the trail will not open until the end of the year or just after that, but if further build days are conducted and more volunteers turn up, it will expedite the project.
The Mill Creek MTB park will not need illegal additions because it will already have been built by the local MTB community to suit all their riding preferences. The council is quite open minded about the design, and happily receive input and ideas from the volunteers. Anyone who wants to build there need only turn up on a build day. I have ridden the proposed course, and the sections already built and I am really pleased at the variety of trail to be included and course layout. Plus, once the main loop is built, it has been agreed that extensions and link trails will be considered and added, allowing the community to have further say about 'new lines'.
The only real concern out there are the motos who continue to use the trails, damaging the work being done. It is a problem still being addressed.
So please, mate, quit trying to incite fear and anger by making uneducated and provocative comments. We true MTBers have enough hurdles to bypass in getting trails approved and built without people trying to bring us down from within.
bigdamo
Likes Dirt
So let me get this right.
Your prepared to ride on an illegal trail/trails (even if it is only for a 150 mtrs)in another riding area(RNP) but you expect other people to ride on your trails and not cut any illegal trails because you have done such a great job designing them that no one would even consider cutting trails.EMMM
By the way the MTB trails in the Royal were built working with the local MTBing community.We had/have to work RNP maybe easier working with Sutherland council.
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Wildchild426
Likes Bikes
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that I don't believe people will even find the need to cut new trails in Menai once the park is complete. Whereas in the RNP, on this creek trail, it has become so unrideably muddy along the part in question that the people who created this diversion saw no alternative other than to build around it. I am in favour of this new diversion for its technical merits and design, and from sparing me a slog through a flat, muddy length of trail. This would not have had to be done if this trail was included in a greater MTB trail network within the RNP and hence was accorded maintenance days.
I would also ask you to spare us your sarcasm. I doubt you have lifted a single finger to assist in the construction of the new Mill Creek MTB park, and I would not have your ridicule undermining the fine efforts of all the dedicated voluteers who have toiled there.