Electric Vehicles etc

beeb

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
rangersac said:
Speccing up models is an attempt by manufactures to make them look more attractive given the high list price because of battery cost.
Click to expand...
It'd be interesting to see the true cost of the battery packs compared to ICE. I really struggle to believe that it's more expensive to manufacture a battery pack, electric motor, and a couple of CV joints compared to the complete ICE drivetrain (especially given the complexity of of the ICE and drivetrain, and the plethora of manufacturing and assembly processes involved, there's just so many more parts involved than in an EV drivetrain).

EV vehicle assembly lines should also be a lot more efficient once optimised too, so I just feel like it's manufacturers trying to delay the inevitable and profit from early adopters if I'm honest...

The manufacturers I'm sure by now know how well they'll sell, as demand for EV's globally generally seems to be over-reaching supply capacity currently, it is my impression that it's more about return on investiment of the current evolution of ICE vehicles than actual costs involved.
 
Haakon

Haakon

has an accommodating arse
beeb said:
It'd be interesting to see the true cost of the battery packs compared to ICE. I really struggle to believe that it's more expensive to manufacture a battery pack, electric motor, and a couple of CV joints compared to the complete ICE drivetrain (especially given the complexity of of the ICE and drivetrain, and the plethora of manufacturing and assembly processes involved, there's just so many more parts involved than in an EV drivetrain).

EV vehicle assembly lines should also be a lot more efficient once optimised too, so I just feel like it's manufacturers trying to delay the inevitable and profit from early adopters if I'm honest...

The manufacturers I'm sure by now know how well they'll sell, as demand for EV's globally generally seems to be over-reaching supply capacity currently, it is my impression that it's more about return on investiment of the current evolution of ICE vehicles than actual costs involved.
Click to expand...
Economies of scale and amorphised engineering/R&D costs.

That’s why it took a Tesla to throw the big bucks at dealing with the economy of scale problem. The cost of batteries was always a chicken and egg situation - cost is high because no one wants them, no one wants them because the cost is high...

That’s also another reason smart governments support new technologies for a while where the public benefit is demonstrably there.
 
beeb

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
Haakon said:
Economies of scale and amorphised engineering/R&D costs.

That’s why it took a Tesla to throw the big bucks at dealing with the economy of scale problem. The cost of batteries was always a chicken and egg situation - cost is high because no one wants them, no one wants them because the cost is high...

That’s also another reason smart governments support new technologies for a while where the public benefit is demonstrably there.
Click to expand...
I'd still like to see the dollar-for-dollar comparison though.
 
rangersac

rangersac

Medically diagnosed OMS
beeb said:
It'd be interesting to see the true cost of the battery packs compared to ICE. I really struggle to believe that it's more expensive to manufacture a battery pack, electric motor, and a couple of CV joints compared to the complete ICE drivetrain (especially given the complexity of of the ICE and drivetrain, and the plethora of manufacturing and assembly processes involved, there's just so many more parts involved than in an EV drivetrain).

EV vehicle assembly lines should also be a lot more efficient once optimised too, so I just feel like it's manufacturers trying to delay the inevitable and profit from early adopters if I'm honest...

The manufacturers I'm sure by now know how well they'll sell, as demand for EV's globally generally seems to be over-reaching supply capacity currently, it is my impression that it's more about return on investiment of the current evolution of ICE vehicles than actual costs involved.
Click to expand...
At the most basic level of comparison you are essentially comparing a battery with an ICE motor, and battery pack costs come down to price per kWh. This study showed an average price of $156 per kWh. Operating on this assumption, you then have to decide how much range is adequate for comparison. If we consider 500km range as a reasonable comparison with an ICE driven car (and the reason I choose this arbitrary figure is that an average tank of fuel for most cars will at least do 500km of driving) you are roughly looking at a battery size of 70kWh or thereabouts (see here for range comparisons). So, at the figure battery figure quoted above, a 70kWh battery is $10,920. I'm no expert on the costs of petrol engines, but I'd hazard a guess that a pretty standard 4-6 cylinder motor of the non performance variety would be somewhere in the range of $4.5K - $5.5K (I'm sure the petrolheads on here will correct me if I'm wrong) so the upfront costs of EV construction are considerably more.
 
M

marks

Likes Bikes
hifiandmtb said:
  1. Grease the door locks.
  2. Do an unnecessary wheel alignment.
  3. Profit.
Click to expand...
Still need to replace brake fluid every 2 years.
Coolant changes dependent on the quality of coolant they ae using.
A/C filters.
Rotate and balance tires
Greasing door locks went out in the 80"s.

Certainly ALOT less servicing though. 1 of many reason I would suggest young people not enter the automotive servicing industry. Once the uptake on EV increases enough the service centers are going to shrink greatly.
 
downunderdallas

downunderdallas

Likes Bikes and Dirt
rangersac said:
At the most basic level of comparison you are essentially comparing a battery with an ICE motor, and battery pack costs come down to price per kWh. This study showed an average price of $156 per kWh. Operating on this assumption, you then have to decide how much range is adequate for comparison. If we consider 500km range as a reasonable comparison with an ICE driven car (and the reason I choose this arbitrary figure is that an average tank of fuel for most cars will at least do 500km of driving) you are roughly looking at a battery size of 70kWh or thereabouts (see here for range comparisons). So, at the figure battery figure quoted above, a 70kWh battery is $10,920. I'm no expert on the costs of petrol engines, but I'd hazard a guess that a pretty standard 4-6 cylinder motor of the non performance variety would be somewhere in the range of $4.5K - $5.5K (I'm sure the petrolheads on here will correct me if I'm wrong) so the upfront costs of EV construction are considerably more.
Click to expand...
Yes but even the ones with a much smaller range seem to have a much higher cost relative to their ICE equivalent. Maybe it's sunk engineering costs but you wouldn't think a battery and an electric motor is a major engineering feat would you? If you look at the cost of some of the Chinese cars it definitely can be done for a lot less, surely a relatively short period before most major manufacturers move mostly to EV at which point the whole process will get cheaper including the batteries.

I'm with pretty much everyone else, once you can get a decent EV for a decent price ICE will be harder to find than a 26 inch bike. Need to have removable batteries I can charge from my solar panels during the day when I'm at work and then swap them out when I get home! That will be a seriously cheap commute!
 
rangersac

rangersac

Medically diagnosed OMS
downunderdallas said:
Yes but even the ones with a much smaller range seem to have a much higher cost relative to their ICE equivalent. Maybe it's sunk engineering costs but you wouldn't think a battery and an electric motor is a major engineering feat would you? If you look at the cost of some of the Chinese cars it definitely can be done for a lot less, surely a relatively short period before most major manufacturers move mostly to EV at which point the whole process will get cheaper including the batteries.

I'm with pretty much everyone else, once you can get a decent EV for a decent price ICE will be harder to find than a 26 inch bike. Need to have removable batteries I can charge from my solar panels during the day when I'm at work and then swap them out when I get home! That will be a seriously cheap commute!
Click to expand...
Australia is pretty much the arse end of the earth when it comes to EV cars. "New" models like the 2nd generation LEAF or the Tesla model 3 have been for sale in some markets for 2-3 years by the time they hit our shores. That actually makes a big difference in the sunk costs you mentioned in terms of batteries, as cost per kWh is dropping by around 10% per annum
 
mark22

mark22

Likes Dirt
The RACQ did a real world test on a EV a while back and found the range quite limiting on the highway due to the general lack of regenerative charging opportunity. What I found really stupid is the public charging stations cannot charge all brands due to different plugs used by manufacturer's. Now that is plain stupid in my book not having a standard port.
 
gippyz

gippyz

Likes Dirt
Agree with that. I spoke with Nissan dealer about why we’re getting the leaf terribly late and he said just simply because there’s little demand and no incentives from the government. Car manufacturers go where the demands are and right now demand elsewhere is much much larger.

Plug wise, they’re standardising. The CCS2 seems to be the standard now. You can use Tesla charger to charge say ioniq as model 3 uses CCS2.
The pain in the butt is that some Tesla chargers only charge Tesla cars - for some reason idk why, and these make up most of the chargers around atm.

Yes range on the EV on the highway is misleading. The ioniq supposed to have 311km, plenty to get me to Canberra, but no I could only make Goulburn.
 
hifiandmtb

hifiandmtb

Sphincter beanie
Yep, the local car distributors are all over it when it comes to getting their product offerings correct:


Offer some EVs & watch sales increase...we're in that predicted period where there's a significant amount of peeps who will hold onto their existing ICE, waiting for the next EV to be released that suits their needs. They will not buy another ICE.
 
Haakon

Haakon

has an accommodating arse
gippyz said:
Yes range on the EV on the highway is misleading. The ioniq supposed to have 311km, plenty to get me to Canberra, but no I could only make Goulburn.
Click to expand...
No different to quoting fuel efficiency for ICE - there is always an caveat on those numbers, depends on your right foot and driving conditions. Its common knowledge that ICE is more efficient (or at least a longer range) on the highway and EV in town.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top