I think mywifesirrational will be able to add a lot of value to the thread, so hopefully he (or she) will stick around.
Have to disagree on protein supps being a waste of money though - on a $ per gram of protein basis, bulk WPI or WPC are usually much cheaper than whole foods. That's the only reason I use them, I'm a massive cheapskate.
I not necessarily saying don't take protein supplements, but make sure diet is 100% before throwing away good money on a bandaid fix.
But there's little nutritional value compared to real food, if they add vits / minerals, the body struggles to metabolise them like real food.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for helpful input. It's just that snippets like these:
Don't help anyone, especially in a thread where there's been a really supportive sense of community/people genuinely trying to help eachother.
I do apologise, i didn't mean to come across like that, sometimes I don't bother re-reading my posts and it comes across poorly.
It has been a good thread and I have enjoyed reading it. The sense of community in here is excellent, but to me this thread also highlights the risk of taking advice off the internet (kind of ironic considering me typing this). There's an awful lot of the myths and crap in here mixed in with some quality decent advice. The average person falls for the bad advice everytime for some reason, not their fault, there just not trained in the skills to separate the crap from the truth. Part of the problem is the average personal trainer (99% of them) although highly enthusiastic has absolutely no real knowledge and magazines like mens health are absolute crap, having taught in the exercise science for many years now even the average ex sci graduate is a dubious source of info.
I have to disagree with the "Training has no relation to muscle mass/size" though, How is it then that a powerlifter can be absolutley tiny compared to a bodybuilder at the same level of strength (1RM's)? Even at the same bodyweight? If you want big muscles you need to train differently to if you want strength. Which you even state yourself later... "beginner style programs are typically not 6rep / high intensity, that's a great strength program with minimal hypertrophy"
theme.
I probably misinterpreted, I took it as stage of training, I have trained elite to clinical populations, its the same principles for both groups regardless of their training status, muscle mass, current strength and ability. You just apply it in a safer way for the old frail clients.
In regards to body builders, which is not a sport by the way, as they have no performance parameters - no strength, speed, skill, or any other performance measures are used in body builder, they always get angry when I tell them that.
Typically a power lifter will be substantially stronger then a body builder, in which there's three main reasons (there's more than three, but I need to get to bed).
Power lifters train to develop a high rate of force development (RFD) while it power lifting doesn't look particularly fast at a glance it is, they move very heavy loads very fast. In developing RFD neurologically you are able to recuit muscle fibres faster resulting in a greater summation of forces. Body builders typically train very slowing, this maximises the metabolic effect which in turn helps hypertorphy, but has little effect of absolute strength. I would highly recommend power training for cycling or any other sport as it is highly advantageous if you want to be quicker than the peep next to you.
Now that being said body builders do have excellent power, slap a protein shake out of the next body builders hand, if you don't get caught in 40-60 meters you'll get away, but over that short distance body builders are very fast (and now really angry).
As a muscle gets larger (larger fibres, not more fibres) pennation angles get less advantageous, that is each fibre as it gets bigger has more of an angle to pull from, ie it no longer pulls from straight down the muscle but more from the side, the larger the muscles the greater the pennation angle, the weaker you become for you're given mass. Hence the bigger a body builder gets the weaker they are in relation to their cross sectional area. I don't think I explained that well, heres a link.
http://homepage.mac.com/wis/Personal/lectures/musculoskeletal/MuscleMechanics.pdf
Lastly specificity plays a more important role than people realise, power athletes train with very large gross movements, and essentially they get very coordinated and efficient at doing this. Body builders train in isolation (no not in the closet, well maybe... single muscle groups) so fatigue is less of an issue so that can maximise rep ranges. When you train in isolation there is minimal cross over to gross movements. I imagine a body builder could bicep curl more than a power lifting as this is very specific to body body, although pointless for every sport I can think of.
do you actually believe that protein supplements are needed? The supplement company, sales idiot, idiot at gym will tell you you must use them, at least for the first two its because they want your money, and the third, well the poor guy believed the first two.
We only need a modest amount of protein to build muscle, more is not better - I haven't read any research into this in the last two years but last decent study I read was 1.62g/kg/per day. The more protein you ingest, the larger you're calorie intake = fatter. More protein intake more filtration through the kidneys, damaged kidneys are not common but it does happen. You could always cut out carbs? then be so flat you can't train a decent intensity.
Eat a well balanced diet, have all foods in moderation, you'll get big, strong (with good training) and feel great. Sorry but sometimes the most simple and obvious advice is the best - but that doesn't make an entire industry built on lies money.