Food/Diet help for the skinny kids - putting on size and protein suppliment suggestions

[Mywifesirrational]

MWI is the man, advice is always spot on.

MWI would anaerobic sprints still promote your body to keep muscle low?

I would think it would go the other way and actually promote a reasonable amount of muscle growth as you'll be highly recruiting type 2 fibres (with a high potential for growth) - think track cyclist legs. But it's always going to depend on total volume, timing of anaerobic vs aerobic exercise, energy input/output and periodisation.

Good thread.
Agree with no carbs before bed. Makes it harder to get to sleep.
Overweight people should avoid fat after dark. Stop their body storing it in their sleep.

Yeah that's all a myth. Your body doesn't know what time it is.....

While I am not convinced eating carbs, fats or sacrificing virgins after dark has much effect on the average persons mass, for the average person getting the calorie intake correct and not having massive meals is the dominate factor - grazing 4-6 small meals a day seems to work a lot better. But - there might actually be something to not eating fat/carbs at night for the purpose of weight loss as your body is well aware of circadian cycles, if you want to put on weight this is a anecdotal method as most serious body builders will eat wake up and eat in the middle of the night.

Well known phenomenon that shift workers put on weight, a study many years ago actually monitored everything they ate before going on night shift and also compared to aged matched controls who work on days. With the same food intake but at night the shift workers did put on a significant amount of weight. Unfortunately the study could/did not account for changes in sleep patterns and physical activity - which may have been the underlying cause of the weight gain.

It certainly has an effect in mice (they aren't allowed to lock people up for the test...)

Circadian timing of food intake contributes to weight gain.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Circadian%20Timing%20of%20Food%20Intake%20Contributes%20to%20Weight%20Gain

Light at night increases body mass by shifting the time of food intake
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20937863

Highlights the problems in shift workers.

Exercise, energy balance and the shift worker.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18620467

 

[Bryce88]

What worked for me...

Everyone on here will tell you something different - some things will work for you and some won't - try and take into consideration what everyone says and give it a try, remembering that results can take weeks/months to physically see. Eventually you will find what works for you and what doesn't.

Firstly - If you want to put on weight - don't eat shit food. You will put on weight but it is just fat and you will struggle to lose it.

I am 184cm and weighed 60kgs about 5 years ago....arms and legs like twigs - a strong breeze would blow me over (almost). Now I weigh 90kgs. I am still skinny but according to the BMI I am overweight haha.

What worked for me:

Gym about 5x a week
Protein shakes
Eat normally and healthy
Rest

My routine was broken down into groups:
Chest & Triceps
Shoulders & abs
Back & Biceps
Legs & cardio
Triceps & Biceps
Rest saturday/sunday

I don't tend to do much cadio at the gym as I am generally active - either riding or playing squash

I only spend an hour at the gym as thats really all the time I get. I have basically stuck to the same routine for the past few years. If I get bored with a something I will mix things up a bit.

I do a warm up set (about 1/2 weight of a heavy set), 3x heavy sets (to the point I struggle getting 6 - 7 reps) and pyramid on the last (do as many reps as possible, make the weight lighter and go again.) Generally I aim at doing 4x sets per muscle group. If I am really struggling for time I will superset (e.g. doing a back excercise and then doing chin ups straight after).

Straight after a workout I would take a protein shake. In my opinion I wouldn't buy a weight gain shake as you can simply make your own. Buy a basic whey protein powder and add your own ingrediants (yogurt, bananas, peanut butter, oatmeal etc). It's cheaper than a weight gain shake and you know 100% what it is made from. Currently I only take a protein shake post-workout however there is nothing stopping you having more.

And don't feel guilty for having rest days. Your muscles need to recover - if they don't recover you are wasting your time, effort and money.

Sorry if my post is a bit rambled - I am at work at flicking between screens.

Just keep things simple to start with and build on that - there are a thousand different supplements/workouts to choose from and each saying they are the best.

Good luck with it all.

 

[Cypher]

There is a link between poor sleep and high weight. It is definitely easier to overeat when you are tired.

Maybe it is not the circadian rhythm but just tiredness

 

[Mywifesirrational]

chopped

It is not about trial and error; there are peer reviewed and proven methods for building strength and mass, if you decide not to follow these proven methods you are potentially wasting your time.
I remembering a thread a while back about a program for you. From the program you have linked I think I can profile you as a male, no older than 18-21 years old, no formal qualification or instruction in progressive resistance training models.

This is a terrible program – not criticising you, just the program (presuming its mon-fri).
(mon) Chest & Triceps
(tue) Shoulders & abs
(wed) Back & Biceps
(thu) Legs & cardio
(fri) Triceps & Biceps
Rest saturday/sunday

problems with program (there is more, but these are the important ones).
1) Train shoulders with chest, training them the day after means they are already fatigued resulting in low training loads and over training them, they are not going to get bigger or stronger doing this.
2) Legs with aerobic exercise do not mix. Aerobic training stops adaptations to muscle fibres, legs are already hard enough to get bigger or stronger, separate your aerobic exercise from resistance training (particularly legs).
3) A strange obsession with bi/tri’s, you are training these twice per week but only legs, chest and back once per week?
4) One session per seven days is not enough repeated volume to maximise strength or mass gains, they should be trained 2-3 time per week depending on your level progression.
5) This program conveys no apparent goal to me, has a strong focus on ‘beach muscle’ at the expense of decent exercises.

Simpler program (yes, there are many other ways to do this that works).
Mon/thur – Chest, shoulders, tri’s
Weds – aerobic exercise, abs
Tue/fri – Legs, back, bi’s

 

[jonozrx]

Full-body 3x per week is also ok if you plan your volume load/deload effectively.

If you can handle a bit more volume (which should be fine when in caloric surplus) you could try:

Monday: Upper body
Tuesday: lower body
Thursday: upper body
Friday: lower body

Another variant of the above is changing upper/lower for push/pull.

 

[Bryce88]

MWI

Obviously you have alot more knowledge on the subject and thats cool. Im just saying - what I do worked for me. Thanks for your advice anyway :thumb: I will actually use it.

 

[driftking]

It is not about trial and error; there are peer reviewed and proven methods for building strength and mass, if you decide not to follow these proven methods you are potentially wasting your time.
I remembering a thread a while back about a program for you. From the program you have linked I think I can profile you as a male, no older than 18-21 years old, no formal qualification or instruction in progressive resistance training models.

This is a terrible program – not criticising you, just the program (presuming its mon-fri).
(mon) Chest & Triceps
(tue) Shoulders & abs
(wed) Back & Biceps
(thu) Legs & cardio
(fri) Triceps & Biceps
Rest saturday/sunday

problems with program (there is more, but these are the important ones).
1) Train shoulders with chest, training them the day after means they are already fatigued resulting in low training loads and over training them, they are not going to get bigger or stronger doing this.
2) Legs with aerobic exercise do not mix. Aerobic training stops adaptations to muscle fibres, legs are already hard enough to get bigger or stronger, separate your aerobic exercise from resistance training (particularly legs).
3) A strange obsession with bi/tri’s, you are training these twice per week but only legs, chest and back once per week?
4) One session per seven days is not enough repeated volume to maximise strength or mass gains, they should be trained 2-3 time per week depending on your level progression.
5) This program conveys no apparent goal to me, has a strong focus on ‘beach muscle’ at the expense of decent exercises.

Simpler program (yes, there are many other ways to do this that works).
Mon/thur – Chest, shoulders, tri’s
Weds – aerobic exercise, abs
Tue/fri – Legs, back, bi’s

I am 50/50 with you here MWI. well more like 20:80

Trial and error there is some amount of this, when it comes to training, I agree, no there is no trial and error follow what works and what is studied, but in terms of nutrition and training load there is definitely trail and error, depending on body composition you may need more rest than another person, likewise people have varying metabolisms so there is some minor trial and error, more like tweaking though rather than trying complete new strategies.

As MWI said it is not enough to hit area once a week, you really should aim for minimum of 2, I like 3 day splits with a day rest between, so that including two rest days in the cycle that is 2 full workouts in 8 days. This I would say is the minimum, If your not recovered after 4 days then there is something off with another area.

Again that workout I completely agree its all over the place and unbalanced.

Id aim for:
1.chest, shoulder and Bicep
2.back and legs
3.Tricep's and abs
4.rest
5.repeat

Mix up with a equal number of push and pull workouts. That's what I'm leaning towards anyway.
If your looking for size though compounds are the way to go.

On second consideration, tri's would be ideal on day 2 though they will be worn after chest and shoulders so I would have to say MWI hit it spot on in that way to train. if doing mroe isolation Id go with the one I put forwards. (me personally not saying anyone else should)

P.s MWI Mr anti core specific workouts, did you just suggest abs? haha.

 

[Grrilla]

Got some very brief tips for you - I've gone from 60kg to 107-110kg in about 3.5-4 years and my lifts have gone from pre-pubescent girl to able to compete in powerlifting.

My suggestions are:

• have a look at an established program such as 5/3/1 by Jim Wendler and do the Boring but Big for assistance. If you're just starting out don't make up your own program, you'll pretty much just waste your time.
• Lifts should be based around heavy squat, bench, deadlift and overhead press
• Use volume to grow - e.g. 5 sets of 10 reps at 50-60% of your 1RM.
• Eat clean(ish) but big. Try to get down heaps of protein and fats (e.g. avocado) etc.
• If you really want to grow, don't do excessive amounts of cardio.
• Keep track of what you eat and lift so you can see what works and what doesn't.
• Have a look on elitefts.net and LEARN HOW TO DO THE LIFTS PROPERLY. You'll grow more from full range than partials. And when you bench 60kg for partials nobody cares and you look like a douche, so just do full reps. Please.

Also if you really want to grow, it takes time. Don't get disheartened if you don't put on 20kg in 3 months, consistency and commitment are keys. Just keep at it and the gains will come.

If you want to ask anything specific, please feel free to PM me.

 

[Grrilla]

Also if you are going to get a protein - stick with the Aussie brands as they are better quality - e.g. BodyScience (BSc), Musashi, Top Nutrition. I'd just get a protein that's not a mass-gainer, such as BSc Nitrovol, otherwise you're just paying for carbs.

Post-training nutrition is really important too - straight after training, try take down say 20-40g of sugary carbs such as dextrose, and 20g or so of protein. Trust me this will help!

 

[driftking]

[*]Use volume to grow - e.g. 5 sets of 10 reps at 50-60% of your 1RM.

only 50-60%? how does that compare to a hypertrophy workout of 3x10 or 3x12 of 80% 1RM? Id be keen to see the evidence base.
Also doing 5 sets would mean longer workout times so if it works its good if you can fit it in but you don't want to spend over and hour in the gym.

Can't argue with what worked for you though you obviously put on a sh*t tonne of muscle

 

[Grrilla]

only 50-60%? how does that compare to a hypertrophy workout of 3x10 or 3x12 of 80% 1RM? Id be keen to see the evidence base.
Also doing 5 sets would mean longer workout times so if it works its good if you can fit it in but you don't want to spend over and hour in the gym.

Can't argue with what worked for you though you obviously put on a sh*t tonne of muscle

I did it after getting Jim Wendler's book, I don't really have any scientific based evidence as such but just my experience. I'm pretty sure if you can do 3 sets of 12 at 80% of your 1RM after a bit of training, your 1RM is higher than what you think.

I'm just thinking, I would struggle to get out one set of 12 at 80% of my squat 1RM, pretty sure I'd be stapled to the floor after about the 7th rep haha.. Take the same example, 5 sets of 10 at 60% is difficult but I can get through it.

Anything that has double digit reps is now considered cardio for me anyways haha.. When you're a beginner a lot of things will work, once you move past the first couple of months training it's not as simple. I've tried most set/rep schemes and 5 x 10 seemed to grow me the most.

At the moment I'm doing 5 x 5 of about 75% and that's increasing both my size and strength... go figure!

 

[shirtz]

thanks again for the help guys - especially Grrilla, driftking and MWI. currently doing some reading and will prob PM you during the week

will also post my plan for you and others to see/advise on so i can start it next week

matt

 

[Mywifesirrational]

I did it after getting Jim Wendler's book, I don't really have any scientific based evidence as such but just my experience. I'm pretty sure if you can do 3 sets of 12 at 80% of your 1RM after a bit of training, your 1RM is higher than what you think.

I'm just thinking, I would struggle to get out one set of 12 at 80% of my squat 1RM, pretty sure I'd be stapled to the floor after about the 7th rep haha.. Take the same example, 5 sets of 10 at 60% is difficult but I can get through it.

Anything that has double digit reps is now considered cardio for me anyways haha.. When you're a beginner a lot of things will work, once you move past the first couple of months training it's not as simple. I've tried most set/rep schemes and 5 x 10 seemed to grow me the most.

At the moment I'm doing 5 x 5 of about 75% and that's increasing both my size and strength... go figure!

What you have said about rep range and % of training at a RM is a valid point, which is highlighted by Campos (2002) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12436270 Braith (1993) previously showed much the same result http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8423746)

Each of the following programs had equal volume based off - resistance x repetitions x sets.

high rep 3-5 reps
mid rep 9-11 reps
low pre 25-28 reps

This is eight weeks of training looking at an increase of 1RM after low, mod, high rep range training.

Low reps are vastly superior for strength gains, high reps... not so good - but not terrible either (this is in beginners, advance lifters would get no benefits from high rep ranges). Shouldn't be any surprise around this result, lifting heavier weights makes you stronger.



Now this picture shows something else which is extremely interesting (to me at least), after eight weeks of training the participants did max reps to fatigue at a 60% 1RM load. So this is comparing high, med and low rep ranges of endurance (to the results they got before the eight week training intervention).

High rep ranges are great for developing endurance, low rep ranges are not.

But more interestingly, if you train at low reps,around 5, you will get strong, but if you then change rep ranges up towards 10-12 ranges and work out what load you should be using based off your 1RM, it will be way to heavy for the higher rep range. Or I can also put it this way higher reps transfer strength to lower rep ranges more effectively than lower rep ranges transfer to higher rep ranges.

So Grrilla, what you have said about rep ranges and it effect on %RM is perfectly valid and scientifically proven.

 

[shirtz]

So Grrilla, what you have said about rep ranges and it effect on %RM is perfectly valid and scientifically proven.

can you put it in English for my situation?

Current thoughts are something like below. thoughts?

Monday

BB Squats 3x8
Stiff legged Deadlift 3x8
Single leg press 3x8
Calf raise 3x15

Wednesday

BB Bench Press 3x8
DB Incline Bench press 3x8
Standing Military Press 3x8
Close Grip Bench Press 3x8

Friday

Deadlift 3x8
Chin ups 3x8
Bent over BB row 3x8
EZ bar Curls 3x8

 

[flamshmizer]

Sorry haven't had time to read this thread but just wanted to post my advice.

Take every single thing you hear about working out with a grain of salt. You will see studies that confirm something, and then another study the disproves the exact same thing. You will hear some guy talk about how he got great results with this thing, and then you'll read on the internet that this thing doesn't work at all.

If it seems sensible, it probably is. Eating healthy = good. Eating lots of healthy = big. Lifting heavy things = big/strong. Just be careful taking anything as gospel. You could get lost for days in studies that prove/disprove how what time you eat affects your growth.

Keep your workouts fun and keep changing them. If you aren't enjoying it you won't give it 100%. Changing your routine every now and again will give you a totally different burn that I found to be rewarding as it posed your body a new challange. I personally chose between 6 weeks and 3 months, whenever I stopped seeing results or got bored of gym I'd change. Now someone will come on here telling us that you should do 5.78097801243 weeks and then change routine to get best results. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

can you put it in English for my situation?

Current thoughts are something like below. thoughts?

Monday

BB Squats 3x8
Stiff legged Deadlift 3x8
Single leg press 3x8
Calf raise 3x15

Wednesday

BB Bench Press 3x8
DB Incline Bench press 3x8
Standing Military Press 3x8
Close Grip Bench Press 3x8

Friday

Deadlift 3x8
Chin ups 3x8
Bent over BB row 3x8
EZ bar Curls 3x8

Basically in plain english, you are better to train at higher reps than lower reps for a compromise between strength and muscle mass. Training at higher reps means you'll be able to sit at a higher %RM, which results in greater volumes of training at a higher intensity. Nothing wrong with training at low reps (to maximise 1RM strength), I do it all the time, but I tend to swap back and forth every 4-8 weeks. Periodisation is always a wise thing to utilise, plan ahead and program into your routine.

That program isn't too bad for a three way split. The only things I'd note are:

Monday looks good for volume, but make calf's 3x8 - common misconception is that they need higher reps, they need high loads like every other muscle to stimulate the type IIB's.
I am curious as to why single limb on leg press, I think it is a good approach, just wondering why you select this?

Tuesday has a lot of volume, triceps is going to be destroyed (if your well trained and on the gear it'll be fine), I'd personally dump incline (muscle groups are already well covered by bench and military presses) and close grip (very reliant on triceps) and add dips (could also potentially add another set per exercise if you are not getting to fatigued).

Friday looks pretty good in volume and selection, I'd personally drop EZ bars and go for a seated (slightly reclined) DB curls, puts more stretch into bicep brachii by having the shoulder slightly extended, slightly better exercise all round.

Sorry haven't had time to read this thread but just wanted to post my advice.

Take every single thing you hear about working out with a grain of salt. You will see studies that confirm something, and then another study the disproves the exact same thing. You will hear some guy talk about how he got great results with this thing, and then you'll read on the internet that this thing doesn't work at all.

If it seems sensible, it probably is. Eating healthy = good. Eating lots of healthy = big. Lifting heavy things = big/strong. Just be careful taking anything as gospel. You could get lost for days in studies that prove/disprove how what time you eat affects your growth.

Keep your workouts fun and keep changing them. If you aren't enjoying it you won't give it 100%. Changing your routine every now and again will give you a totally different burn that I found to be rewarding as it posed your body a new challange. I personally chose between 6 weeks and 3 months, whenever I stopped seeing results or got bored of gym I'd change. Now someone will come on here telling us that you should do 5.78097801243 weeks and then change routine to get best results. Take it with a grain of salt.

I'll disagree a bit here, not accepting proven scientific advice is a poor approach (this is why I often link the papers - to show I am not making shit up), yes there are studies that contradict each other, but if you actually read more than just the final concluding line in an abstract and take a close look at the methods, statistic and overall quality of paper (citation number - journal impact factors), there is actually very little in the way of contradiction. There has been 60 years of good quality strength training research and once you have read it all there are definite proven approaches to strength training.

Indeed what you have said here "Eating healthy = good. Eating lots of healthy = big. Lifting heavy things = big/strong." is great advice, I'd also add quality form and persistence.

 

[driftking]

MWI
Do you have any good lateral movements.
While I am starting a bulking phase myself I want minimize flexibility and overall mobility lose.
flexibility is obviously countered by a good stretching routine.

While For mobility it is important to use full range of motion I am still very keen to add some lateral movements to the routine for not only functional reasons but also another way of hitting the muscle for development. Interested if you know of any good ones besides side lunges And if you have an opinion on lateral or diagonal style training of some body parts.

 

[disappearin]

I'll disagree a bit here, not accepting proven scientific advice is a poor approach (this is why I often link the papers - to show I am not making shit up), yes there are studies that contradict each other, but if you actually read more than just the final concluding line in an abstract and take a close look at the methods, statistic and overall quality of paper (citation number - journal impact factors), there is actually very little in the way of contradiction. There has been 60 years of good quality strength training research and once you have read it all there are definite proven approaches to strength training.

I in part agree with both of you. 'Taking everything with a grain of salt' is good advice, but as MWI said not accepting scientific advice is a poor approach. Medical research is what I do for a living and it can be very hard to determine what is accurate at times. Bias, study size and confounding factors are three of the biggest things to look for in research to provide an idea of its accuracy. Numerous companies fund research which looks sound but surprise surprise, the results always seem to support the program or product they sell. The studies MWI linked us to seem accurate although the study sizes were small.
I guess the moral of this story is ask questions, try different things as this is how new techniques are found (a little common sense goes along way here), but don't disregard what has worked for others before. It obviously worked for a reason.

 

[shirtz]

thanks for the replies guys.

After Grrilla's comment about the 5/3/1 work out i did some reading and got jims book. a few explanations here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=112382761

http://www.jimwendler.com/2011/09/531-for-a-beginner/

looks pretty good, but a little complex for a n00b. should i start with the workout i posted (with MWi's modifications) or just start with something like the 5/3/1 program??

will post up diet stuff during the week. my brain is sore from researching!

 

[spj]

MWI, I wouldn't mind hearing your (or others for that matter) opinion on my workout.

Its not set per day but I always make sure I wait at least 48hours before retraining the same muscle group.



First day: Chest and biceps.

Dumbell bench - one warm up set and then 3sets x 8reps.
Curls - 3x8 heavy
Incline bench (doing less and less of this nowadays) or weighted dips, 3x8 again
sometimes I do a set of 21's as well or I will do drop sets of curls.
Pecdec rarely


Second day: Shoulders and tri's

Military press (on smith) - a couple of warm up sets and then 1 or 2 heavies
Split scull crushers with dumbbells - 3x8
either lateral dumbell lifts or a front on disc lift 3x8
Shrugs 3x8 or 3x20 (most of the time I won't do this as I have no trouble building traps and its more just for the rounded look).
Chin ups - 3x8 most of the time, or 3 x until fail, or mechanically assisted drops sets


Third day: Back
Seated rows - warm up and 3x8 heavy
More chin ups (same as above usually)
Rows on a bench (whatever they are called where you lie down on the tall bench and can pull upwards). 3x8


Usually do an ab routine on either the shoulder or back day, starts with hanging leg raises, then the torsinator then goes to a circuit using mostly a medicine ball.


Can't do legs for a while for medical reasons (and haven't been able to for a while either). Used to do a few cardio workouts a week using tabata (HIIT). Can't do most of that because of the legs now either. And despite being a member of this website I haven't ridden a bike in other half a year haha so don't think I'm getting any cardio from there.